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Is Christmas a Hot Button Issue ?
Posted by CodeWarrior on December 20, 2004 at 8:24 AM   (printer friendly)



After the contentious election, it appears some are making Christmas a big issue this year. CSpan this morning, had the topic, "Is Christmas a Battleground?" based on articles in the New York Times.

"Does Christmas Need to be Saved?

"By KATE ZERNIKE

Published: December 19, 2004

A pastor in Raleigh, N.C., took out a full-page newspaper ad in November exhorting Christians to shop only at stores that included "Merry Christmas" in their promotions.

In Mustang, Okla., parents last week voted against an $11 million bond for schools, after the superintendent excised a nativity scene at the end of the annual Christmas play. They then erected their own manger outside the auditorium, with signs saying "No Christ. No Christmas. Know Christ. Know Christmas."

And in Kansas, The Wichita Eagle published a correction this month, noting that the tree lighted at Winterfest was the "Community Tree" not a "Christmas tree." After protests, the mayor last week declared himself "not a politically correct person" and announced that next year there would be a Christmas tree. "

and further in the article...

"...But the demands to bring back Christmas are not simply part of an age-old culture war, with the A.C.L.U. in one corner and evangelicals in the other. There is also a more moderate force, asking whether the country has gone too far in its quest to be inclusive of all faiths. Why, they ask, must a Christmas tree become a holiday tree? And is singing "We Wish You a Merry Christmas" in a school performance more offensive than singing "Dreidel, Dreidel, Dreidel"? "It's political correctness run amok," said Lynn Mistretta, who with another mother in Scarborough, Me., started BringBackChristmas.org. "I'm not for offending anyone, but we're excluding everyone, and everyone feels rotten about it."

Over the years, schools, governments and even department stores have toned down the mention of Christmas after complaints from Jews and others who felt excluded by a holiday they did not celebrate. "The basic proposition is that people have the right to send their children to the public schools without having them evangelized for someone else's religion," said Douglas Laycock, a law professor at the University of Texas in Austin. Those opposed to even secular celebrations of Christmas, he said, "see the increasing strength of the religious right and worry about everything they've gained over the last generation being rolled back."
================================SNIP=======================================
Many folks are saying that the country was founded on the Christian religion.

In 1797,just a little more than 20 years after the Declaration of Independence, the then president of the United States, signed a treaty called The Treaty of Tripoli, which declared that we were not a nation against Muslims. To quote from article 11 of that official statement by the United States government

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html
"Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

(note, "Musselmen" and "Mahometan" were Anglicized spellings of Muslim and Mohammedan)

Christmas has become a merchandizing holiday. It is that aspect of Christmas that is really being "celebrated" by the MPAA, RIAA, and other entertainment product vendors who are counting on the pressure on people to buy, especially for the youngsters, to "move product".

It is widely believed by many biblical scholars, and others, that Jesus was probably NOT born on or around December 25th.

http://www.answerbag.com/q_view.php/7515
"The actual birthday of Jesus was forgotten by the early Christian movement. in those days, various groups celebrated his birth on JAN-6, APR-21 and MAY-1. By the 4th century, the church selected the approximate time of the winter solstice as the date to recognize Jesus' birth. They picked up this date from Pagan sources. As luck would have it, the autumn equinox might have been a more accurate choice.

The winter solstice occurs about DEC-21 each year. It is the day of the year when the night is longest and the daytime shortest. Using the crude instruments available, ancient astronomers were able to detect by DEC-25 of each year that the daytime had become noticeably longer. This date was chosen, and remains, the traditional date for followers of many different Pagan religions to celebrate the rebirth of the sun. Following the solstice, each succeeding day has slightly more sunlight than the previous day. It was seen as a promise that warmth would return once more to the earth. Numerous pre-Christian Pagan religions honored their gods' birth or rebirth on or about that day. Their deities were typically called: Son of Man, Light of the World, Sun of Righteousness, Bridegroom, and Savior. Some examples are:

Roman Pagan Religion: Attis was a son of the virgin Nana. His birth was celebrated on DEC-25. He was sacrificed as an adult in order to bring salvation to mankind. He died about MAR-25, after being crucified on a tree, and descended for three days into the ... (read full answer)"

For more references to the pagan origins to things like "the Yule log", kissing under the misiletoe, etc., check out:
http://paganwiccan.about.com/cs/aboutyule/a/paganxmas.htm
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http://www.americancatholic.org/Messenger/Dec2004/Wiseman.asp#F5
"You are correct that the Bible does not say that Jesus was born on December 25. Christians chose that day to counteract the pagan Saturnalia, the celebration of the day when the northern hemisphere has the least amount of sunlight.

Linking Jesus’ birth with sunlight reaffirms that all creation is good and reveals God, that Christians have a right to use whatever will reinforce God’s universal love and desire to share divine life with each person. In choosing December 25, Christians gave a completely new meaning to the pagan expression sol invictus (unconquered sun celebrated during the Saturnalia). "
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One of the most widely used symbols of Christmas, the Christmas tree, has really, very little to do with the birth of Jesus.

http://www.fabulousfoods.com/holidays/xmas/treehistory.html
"The exact origin of the Christmas tree seems under debate, but it is safe to say that this symbol evolved from Pagan tradition.

The Norse pagans and Celtic Druids revered evergreens as manifestations of deity because they did not "die" from year to year but stayed green and alive when other plants appeared dead and bare. The trees represented everlasting life and hope for the return of spring.

The druids decorated their trees with symbols of prosperity -- a fruitful harvest, coins for wealth and various charms such as those for love or fertility. Scandinavian Pagans are thought to be the first to bring their decorated trees indoors as this provided a warm and welcoming environment for the native fairy folk and tree elementals to join in the festivities. The Saxons, a Germanic pagan tribe, were the first to place lights on the their trees in the form of candles. Ancient Romans decorated their homes with greens at the Festival of Saturnalia, their New Year and exchanged evergreen branches with friends as a sign of good luck.

The first Christian use of the Christmas tree symbol is credited to 16th century when devout Christians also brought decorated trees into their homes. German born Prince Albert, husband of Queen Victoria, is credited with starting the trend in England in 1841 when he brought the first Christmas Tree to Windsor Castle.

While Europe had already been celebrating Christmas for some time, the first recorded sighting of a Christmas tree in America came in 1830's Pennsylvania. It seems a local church erected the tree as a fundraising effort. Christmas trees were generally not thought kindly of in early America, as many people saw them as Pagan symbols, which is in fact, their origin. By the 1890's, however, Christmas ornaments were being imported from Germany and Christmas trees were in high fashion."
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And, Santa Claus , usually said to be a derivation of Saint Nicholas, a priest in Asia Minor who was exiled in prison for a time, though superficially may seem to have a Christian connection, his "gift giving" may have pagan routes.

" It is held by some scholars that the legends of Nicholas as gift-giver drew in part from pagan, preChristian sources. For example, the Teutonic god of the air, Odin, would ride through the air on a gray horse (named Sleipnir) each Autumn - so did Nicholas; Odin had a long white beard - so did Nicholas; a sheaf of grain was left in the field for Odin's horse - children left a wisp of straw in their shoes for Nicholas.4 Others claim that attributes of the Germanic god Thor, the god of thunder, were transferred to Nicholas. Thor was supposedly elderly and heavy with a long white beard; he road through the air in a chariot drawn by two white goats (called Cracker and Gnasher); he dressed in red; his palace was in the "northland;" he was friendly and cheerful; he would come down the chimney into his element, the fire.5 No definitive correlation has ever been found between the "visit of St. Nicholas" and pagan gods such as Odin and Thor. However the similarity is striking and some relationship seems likely.6

After the Reformations of the sixteenth century the Feast of St. Nicholas was abolished in many countries. Throughout northern Germany, for example, the Protestants encouraged veneration of the Christkindl (Christ-child) instead, who, it was said, brought gifts to children on Christmas Eve. As an example of this, a Protestant Pastor of the seventeenth century complains about parents who put presents in their children's beds, telling them that St. Nicholas has brought them. This is a bad custom, he says, "because it points children to the saint, while yet we know that not St. Nicholas but the holy Christ Child gives us all good things for body and soul, and He alone it is whom we ought to call upon."7 Despite this new emphasis, the Nicholas legends prevailed in many places, especially among the Dutch."
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Thus, I think it is fine to celebrate Christmas as a "gift giving holiday", and give myrhh, incense, gold, or even an X-box if you want, but to say that just sticking the word "Christ" in Christmas you are making it a celebration of the birth of the founder of the Christian religion, is a bit simplistic if you ask me.

Christ, from the Greek "Christos" means "the annointed" or "the first one raised"...
"http://www.biblestudy.org/question/christos.html
...the word "Christos" (Greek: CristoV, Strong's Concordance #G5547) in relation to Jesus being called the Messiah. Both the Greek word "Christos" as well as the Hebrew word that comes out "Messiah" mean the same thing: "The anointed One." One allusion to this title is that a king would be anointed with oil when made king. Samuel did this with David when he was first chosen to be king while the prior king, Saul, was very much still alive (see I Sam. 16:12-13)."
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Christ is not the name of Jesus, which in Hebrew, is "Yeshua" or more fully,
"Yeshua ben Joseph" (Yeshua, son of Joseph). I think it is interesting that people are using a Greek word to identify a Semitic man.

Why, for example, can't we put the "Yeshua" back in Christmas?

So, when people are griping that the Christ has gone out of Christmas, does that mean they will be taking down the lights, throwing out the tree, and praying in private on December 25th, or does it mean that they will be ripping open presents under a decorated tree early in the morning of Christmas, upset that Joe gave them a cheaper present than they gave him ?

And, for all the "faith based" organizations griping about putting Christ back in Christmas, in name only...
From James 2:14-26 (King James version of Christian Bible)

"What good is it, my brothers, is a man claims to have faith but has no deeds ? Can such faith save him ? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, 'Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,' but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it ? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."

So.......

I'm cool with refining the focus at Christmas on it's true meanings....so,
no giving RIAA or MPAA products as gifts. Share some food with the homeless on 25 December...that's the REAL way to "Put Christ back in Christmas".


~Just my personal reflections.
CodeWarriorz Thoughts


User Comments (These do not necessarily reflect the beliefs of this site)

DeadMan2003  
Date: December 19, 2004 @ 8:45 AM
I agree to a degree. Christmas to me though is about family and gift giving and celebration is a way of strengthening ones family bonds. Of course if a person has no family then friends and neighbours and even *god forbid* total strangers should be pulling toegtehr and helping in each other. The commercialisation of christmas is what I object to.

And as you stated already. Charity and peace and goodwill to ones fellow man/woman.

So get your wallet out and donate to the poor!

DeadMan2003  
Date: December 19, 2004 @ 8:46 AM
'Together' I mean. That's one big typo :)

CodeWarrior  
Date: December 19, 2004 @ 9:06 AM
DeadMan2003...I agree with you!

BTW
Merry Christmas/Happy belated Hanukkah / Happy Kwanza, and everything else to everyone ;)

autodidact  
Date: December 19, 2004 @ 9:27 AM
The problem with Xmas is that God instructed His People not to worship Him as the heathen nations do. (Deuteronomy 12:30-32) This precludes taking a pagan festival and pasting Christ's name on it. There's nothing wrong with celebrating the nativity. But why not pick another time of the year?

But I still disagree with the ACLU and their mad attempts to remove religion from the public square. 90% of the people keep it, they want it, and they call it Christmas. It is hardly establishing a state religion. It is simply a misguided attempt at remembering Christ.

Get your wallet out and donate to the poor. And not just at Christmastime-- all year round.

P.S. I am poor. :-)

goldenpi  
Date: December 19, 2004 @ 9:41 AM
It will be intresting to see christmas CD sales. If these are down from last year, the industry will probably attempt to blame downloading. It is obvious through that downloading has minimal effect on christmas sales - giving a gift on CD-R would be considered insulting. A more realistic cause would be competition from DVDs, with so many movies hitting shelves during the christmas rush.

SuitablyTwisted  
Date: December 19, 2004 @ 10:47 AM
The Christmas Deconstruction Alliance just does not get it. They are dumbfounded as they have not been able to secularize Christmas. They throw tantrums because of the tenacity with which the vast majority of us hold onto our Christian beliefs and traditions. They do not understand why the United States does not roll over, accept the abolition of Christmas, close down our churches, and remove the crosses from our cemeteries.
They have failed in their attacks on Christmas, as they have not even convinced most of their liberal following. A recent poll indicated 89% of Americans want religion “included in public holiday celebrations.”
The liberal elite think their superior wisdom, and their control of education and the media, should convince us to become a bunch of pagans. They fantasize we will give up our guns, values, morals, and Constitution. They romanticize we will embrace socialized medicine, tolerate failing schools, and become mindless socialist whimps eager to be euthanized before becoming a burden on society.
Why do fringe liberals, Muslim terrorists, European socialists, and communists all hate Christianity? What is the common thread that joins them? They desire to control others, and they despise the fact Christianity promotes freedom based on personal responsibility. One can’t have Christianity directing people’s lives. The autocrats will direct our lives.
They especially hate Christmas as it is the most visible manifestation of Christianity and is celebrated by more people than any other holiday. The fact that Christ and Christmas are still so feared and hated can mean only one thing; Christ really was who He said He was.
The argument of hurting someone’s feelings or making them feel uncomfortable by celebrating Christmas is one of the most powerful liberal weapons used against Christmas. They put the feelings of the few above the many, and that is not democracy. Their actions are hypocritical, as liberals demand our tolerance all of their abominable behavior.
The politically correct insist we should value everyone’s culture. As Christianity is the majority culture in our country, should it not also be valued? Are we observing an overdose of progressive hypocrisy? Just how long are we going to endure the liberal intolerance of our values?
Nowhere does a “wall of separation of church and state” appear in our Constitution. Most people simply do not know this as they have heard assertions of its existence for so long. We can only hope and pray that in the near future our Supreme Court will enforce our Constitution and cease to reinterpret it as a judicial legislative tool.
In typical liberal fashion, the Christmas Deconstruction Alliance attacks the most vulnerable of our society, our small towns and villages, and our schools. Community and school officials are often terrified or simply unaware of the laws. They cannot afford the time and money to fight the legal challenges. There are also those among them who support the leftist attack on Christianity.
Just what are some of the things opposed by those who would eliminate our Judeo-Christian heritage? For one, we can’t have honesty. If the left’s ideas were honestly stated, the left would become an endangered species.
We can’t have self-reliance, as people are too stupid to take care of themselves and take responsibility for their own actions, especially conservatives.
We can’t have hard work and financial success. Israel and the United States have strong economies that must be damaged or at least economically disabled by the Kyoto Treaty.
We can’t have joy since the liberals and terrorists always are angry about something.
We certainly can’t have giving and charity; that is the job of government. Only government bureaucrats are smart enough to dispense our money. What business does the Salvation Army have of collecting money and giving it to the poor? That won’t get any votes.
We can’t have patriotism either. We might offend our enemies. We also shouldn’t defend ourselves as we might insult some thugs and dictators.
We certainly can’t have cohesive families. Families take care of each other and greatly reduce the need for the government to step in and pretend to take care of people.
We definitely can’t acknowledge we are a God-fearing nation who’s Constitution is based on The Ten Commandments. Why that’s in direct opposition to moral and legal relativism (depravity).
If The Ten Commandments, moral values, prayer, and Christmas are removed from our public schools, we are in grave danger. Public schools would increasingly pretend to educate students while indoctrinating them with more leftist propaganda.
The Ten Commandments have been removed from courthouses and other places where unsuspecting citizens might be exposed to them. Recently, a California school tried to ban The Declaration of Independence from a classroom as The Declaration contained references to God. We certainly can’t have impressionable students exposed to the fact that they are “endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights.” All socialists know that our rights come from governments.
If we allow Christmas to be taken from our public life and our educational system, if we allow our Constitution to be turned against us, if we fail to be a light of liberty unto the World, we will also deny freedom to a desperate World that will slip further into darkness. Just like the War on Terror, the battle for Christmas will be long and difficult.
A Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good fight!

Donald May

TheRealJFM  
Date: December 19, 2004 @ 11:25 AM
I'm atheist and I celebrate christmas.
Lets face it, its a pagan festival anyway, why do we have to be relgionist about this?

Enjoy yourself!

I don't get all this stuff about "Happy Holidays" - we don't get that here. In one of the most Atheist countries in the world, we call it "Christmas", yet in one of the most Fundamentally Christian countries in the world you avoid calling it Christmas?

Anyone willing to explain to a confused Brit?

leflaw  
Date: December 19, 2004 @ 11:42 AM
I will tell you what's cool. Look at the google ads at the bottom of this thread! Christmas Ads!!! Cool.!!! How did they know we were talking about xmas?

Also I thought brits call it boxing day.



pmmusic  
Date: December 19, 2004 @ 11:57 AM
well said suitably twisted..

Merry Christmas to all.

MRNEMO  
Date: December 19, 2004 @ 12:04 PM
Ah. Christmas! Gives the world a chance to prove how much everyone have become material whores. But that's just mine opinion. Christianity founded itself off of paganism and then decides to demonize it's roots. Chirstianity is about control, not freedom.
BTW I'm atheist too.

Lachatte  
Date: December 19, 2004 @ 12:15 PM
My daughter goes to a public high school. One of her electives is a vocal music course. The group performs a carol service every year - all religious music. Christian, Jewish... Religious. It's beautiful.
No one is forced to participate. No one is forced to attend. That is religious freedom.
I think that celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ and celebrating the holiday of Christmas are separate actions.
I enjoy both. Merry Christas and Happy Holidays!

Lachatte  
Date: December 19, 2004 @ 12:16 PM
Excuse me. That's "Christmas". Merry Christmas.

shoshidge  
Date: December 19, 2004 @ 12:36 PM
good post, every christian should know this stuff.

One detail I would like to add is that I always thought that the gift giving tradition in Christmas started with the gifts given to Jesus by the wise men, i didn't think it had anything to do with Thor or Odin riding over your town on a chariot.

I've read another take on the "Norse-god riding over your town on a flying ______ being pulled by hoofed______'s". his name was Val and he came once a year to cast moral judgement on those in the town,(a possible origin of the "naughty or nice" aspect of Santa".

Also, Coca-Cola is responsible for the modern appearance of Santa Claus.

I find modern holidays fascinating, especially Christmas. The fact that our current manifestation of it is such a twisted mixture of various pagan, Christian and folk traditions, makes any Christian who feels somewhow proprietary over it seem ignorant.

It also deflates the politically correct arguement, after all, if christmas is more of a folk holiday than a religious one, which it is for most of us, why can't everyone celebrate it?

CodeWarrior  
Date: December 19, 2004 @ 12:45 PM
I thought Boxing Day was any day Mike Tyson gets into a car wreck...
:)

Lachatte  
Date: December 19, 2004 @ 1:08 PM
Well, Code, I can't comment on Tyson. I don't follow his antics. But thanks for the research. They don't teach that in Catholic school.
I studied mythology back then, but wasn't familiar with Attis. This might be because he cut off his genitals. Hmmmmm.

gdZiemann  
Date: December 19, 2004 @ 1:35 PM
"Coca-Cola is responsible for the modern appearance of Santa Claus."

Wrong, and this is the second time in two weeks that this misinformation has appeared on these pages. Thomas Nast did a series of covers for Harper's Weekly between 1863 to 1886 that defined the appearance of Santa as we know it.Coca-Cola may have appropriated the image, but they are NOT responsible for it.

"Many folks are saying that the country was founded on the Christian religion."

Unfortunately, these "folks" seem to have no knowledge of history or why this country was formed. Look at Ireland for starts. Almost completely Christian, yet the Protestants and Catholics have been killing each other for 400 years. In the name of God.

Our country was founded to protect the Christians from each other, having watched England rotate through Catholic, Protestant and Anglican religions (all of which are Christian), each persecuting those who were not members of the religion of the year.

We started this country to get away from having our religious practices dictated to us by whoever happened to have authority at the moment.

Telling people that they're "not doing it right" and boycotting businesses on this basis is the antithesis of America. It's what we came here to escape.

If you engage in this behavior, you may be furthering the mission of your particular faith, but are unarguably simultaneously eroding one of the fundamental tenets of our Constitution.

gdZiemann  
Date: December 19, 2004 @ 1:47 PM
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State."
-- Thomas Jefferson - 1802

"Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions, may establish with the same ease any particular sect of Christians, in exclusion of all other Sects?. Whilst we assert for ourselves a freedom to embrace, to profess and to observe the Religion which we believe to be of divine origin, we cannot deny an equal freedom to those whose minds have not yet yielded to the evidence which has convinced us. If this freedom be abused, it is an offense against God, not against man: To God, therefore, not to man, must an account of it be rendered."

-- James Madison - 1799

Such are the opinions of our Founding Fathers and therein lies the basis for any such issue should it rise to the Supreme Court.

It is also the basis and intent of our Constitution.

To believe otherwise is simply unAmerican and requires ignoring our country's entire history.

gdZiemann  
Date: December 19, 2004 @ 2:06 PM
"Nowhere does a 'wall of separation of church and state' appear in our Constitution. Most people simply do not know this as they have heard assertions of its existence for so long."

I find it ironic that these are the exact words that Thomas Jefferson used to make the intent of the Constitution crystal clear.

Most people simply do not know this as they have heard denials of its existence for so long.

NiceGuy2003  
Date: December 19, 2004 @ 3:06 PM
Boxing Day is celebrated on December 26 in Canada and Britain. The concept is that you give presents (in boxes) on that day. Christmas for them used to be feasting and celebrating Christ's birth.

Then there's the celebration of Old Christmas, usually around January 6, but which moves up a day every century or so since it's based on the old Julian Calendar which is now running around 12 days off.

While we're on the subject of holidays and their origins, we should also mention that other holiday that we'll be celebrating in a few months, Easter. Everyone assumes that it is the celebration of the Resurrection of Christ. Now while it's a good assumption to believe that Christ did rise from the dead after three days, to say it happened on the first Sunday in April (or last Sunday in March) is absurd. The real origin of the holiday comes from a very old festival encountered by Christian missionaries to England called Eostere. Since the festival took place over three days, the missionaries felt it was the best time to celebrate Christ's Resurrection. As to where that darned Bunny came from, don't ask me.

But most holidays, other than Jewish holidays, which are celebrated when they really happened, are inventions of ancient Christian missionaries looking for a way to get the pagans to accept the rule of Rome. Turns out it worked.

tomsong  
Date: December 19, 2004 @ 3:26 PM
Get on the bunny research, Code. You're the internet whiz. And don't confuse it with the infamous Brown Bunny scene between Choe Sveigny and Vince Gallo, which has been digitized and is on the internet.

gdZiemann  
Date: December 19, 2004 @ 4:25 PM
"to say it happened on the first Sunday in April (or last Sunday in March) is absurd"

Of course it is. That's why Easter changes every year and the date is not set in stone.

Easter is the first Sunday after the first full moon after the spring equinox.

gdZiemann  
Date: December 19, 2004 @ 4:30 PM
According to England's the Venerable Bard (672-735), the goddess Eastre was worshipped by the Anglo-Saxons through her earthly symbol, the hare.

The custom was brought to America by the Germans who immigrated to Pennsylvania in the 18th and 19th centuries.

wet1  
Date: December 19, 2004 @ 4:43 PM
Christmas is a hot button issue for another reason. One mentioned in the article above. Since it is the best "sales" time of the year, merchants now have a day after sale to clear the shelves in preparation for the Christmas stock. This has been a tradional custom and one that many shoppers look for.

As soon as possible, the shelves are stocked with the Christmas trinkets in preparation for the selling fest to come. Lately the merchants are pushing this day of stocking shelves earlier and earlier, hoping to extend the selling season (or silly season as some would say). Now a days easter starts in March for sales, Halloween starts in late August, and November is getting to where the date comes earlier and earlier every year as to when the stock starts appearing on the shelves for Christmas.

Argue religion as you will but commercial Christmas has little bearing on the religious aspect. I find that less and less am I inspired to buy during Christmas and that the customers become ruder each year in the seeking of that special gift for the little one. Many articles are starting to appear that bring those actions of the rude shopper to the newspaper and editorials. Stories of adults taking advantage of the elderly, the kids, and each other is a total turn off and certainly not in the spirit of the holiday.

We have become the victims of commercial hype. With children that want this or that latest fad seen on tv. To get that fad shoppers are being rude in ever increasing numbers.

To see such a magic time being turned into a free for all for commercial interests is a sad let down. Such actions don't speak well for the average citizen nor for the country as a whole.

What a shame...

gdZiemann  
Date: December 19, 2004 @ 5:20 PM
If you think political correctness has gone out the window in the US, the zealots in Britain are already freaking out over BBC4's "plans to screen a documentary which dismisses some parts of the Bible as untrue and attacks others as being a 'masterwork of spin'."

Of the Old Testament, host , Dr Robert Beckford, a reader in theology at Birmingham University, declares: 'The so-called law of Moses turns out to be the work of many human hands. What I once thought was the word of God was now beginning to sound like something out of Stalin's Russia.'

He produces archaeological evidence to suggest the Bible's claims that the kingdoms of David and Solomon dominated the 10th century BC were wrong, an error that raises profound claims about the genesis of Christianity.

He declares the New Testament a 'masterwork of spin written by people who were nowhere near the events they describe, all gathered by powerful editors who kept out ideas they did not like'.

- - - - - - - - - -

I'll give you the link to that at the end so that I can add a comment.

A) If you're worrying about "saving" Christmas, remember that this is a periodic phobia.
B) Blind faith without reason is insanity.
C) The ultimate truth can withstand immense scrutiny purely by being true. False beliefs require secrecy, repetitious ceremony and superstition to hide their flaws.

Those who claim religious tradition and being the dominant majority as a basis for pushing their particular belief must necessarily omit from their memory that there are great traditions still celebrated in America which predate the arrival of Christians in this country. Of course, we don't know a lot about those traditions, because the Christians did their very best to exterminate the entire indigenous population of what is now America.

gdZiemann  
Date: December 19, 2004 @ 5:21 PM
http://media.guardian.co.uk/site/story/0,14173,1376992,00.html

shoshidge  
Date: December 19, 2004 @ 8:26 PM
I'm totally with you on the last bit there G.

The Coke=Santa connection came from a documentary I saw a few years ago.
While it didn't say Coke originated the Santa image as a big, fat, jolly, bearded guy in a red suit, it made the point that Coke's advertising department was instrumental in bringing that image into the popular conciousness en masse where it has remained.

I don't know if they were entirely correct, it seemed to make sense and it re-affirmed the idea that Christmas,(as we celebrate it), is by no means an exclusively Christian holiday.
There is a certain amount of karmic justice in the fact that Christians don't like their rituals co-opted by secular-humanist liberals.
I'm sure the pagans felt the same way when the early Christians started usurping their sacred events, because they did the same thing with Easter and Hallowe'en. For some reason, they left out summer solstice.

shoshidge  
Date: December 19, 2004 @ 8:29 PM
Sounds like a good show, I wish I got the BBC

mmnuc3  
Date: December 19, 2004 @ 9:15 PM
gdziemann you said what i think...less offensivly than i would have put it though...hehe. correct me if i'm wrong but the only "true" christian holiday that i can think of is halloween...and they now hate their own creation.

Bush is still Lyin',
Troops are still Dyin',
Down with the Bush regime!

pepe512000  
Date: December 19, 2004 @ 9:16 PM
SuitablyTwisted To you my friend, I salute you..your post is awesome! Couldn't say anything better than that...

gdZiemann - to you, Humbug....you make the perfect Scrooge :)

For all of us here who happen to love the joy and magic of Christmas (I just lit up my HEATHEN tree tonight).

For all of us here who never want to grow up, grow old, shrivel up and die miserably, or who just want to play, here is a web site that just caught me right. What they can't do with technology nowadays. Here's a chance to play with someone else's house lights.

Alek's Christmas Lights Webcam
http://www.komar.org/cgi-bin/xmas_webcam


gdZiemann  
Date: December 19, 2004 @ 9:23 PM
pepe, coming from you, I take that as a compliment.

CodeWarrior  
Date: December 19, 2004 @ 9:25 PM
When I first came across that "Saving Christmas" article..it just struck me so odd..because, if you take the Christian notion that Christmas is celebrating Yeshua's birthday...that's all it is....a month long birthday party...except everyone gets gifts but the honoree (the last he got was a bloody walk to Golgotha, thanks to the Romans and the Sanhedrin).....but, hey, it's still a birthday...

There's nothing, absolutely no statement by Christ/ Yeshua, that you should make a big deal out of his birthday. I honestly beleive that if Jesus were here so we could talk to him, he would be aghast at what is happening in his name....crass commercialism..and he lived like a poor man, and stressed that one should not store up treasures here on Earth, but store up treasures in Heaven.

Jesus (if you are a Christian) came that none should perish, but all should have everlasting Life...thus, he was a living conduit for believers, that no more blood sacrifices would have to be made, because he became the blood sacrifice for all humanity...

But, the Neo-Cons, like the zealots of Yeshua's day, want to use him for their own political ends. The zealots wanted him to use his supernatural powers to overthrow the Romans, and the Neo-Cons used him to help elect Bush, and to further their political agenda with regard to the middle east (which, in a way, is what the zealots had in mind as well)....

The bottom line is, that even if you are an atheist, you probably think Jesus was a decent, well intentioned fellow, even if you don't believe his literal divinity.

The point is, if someone claims that they want the Christ back in Christmas..they have to take Yeshua the way he was..not how they want to mold him...he was a rebel, he was iconoclastic, and fought against the hypocritical religious establishment, and at the same time, he was socially liberal and tolerant of others, even the harlots and publicans. Yikes....he may even be described as a :::::Shudder:::::====liberal!

When asked how his favorite philosopher was, Bush said Jesus. That sounds like an atheist response, because no Christian I know calls Jesus a "philosopher".

But, to paraphrase the Bible...not everyone who cries Lord Lord will enter the Kingdom, but those that doeth the Will of the Father Who Art in Heaven
"Matthew 7:21: ""Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

Matthew 7:22: "Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'"

Matthew 7:23: "Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'" "

gdZiemann  
Date: December 19, 2004 @ 9:48 PM
pepe -- I have no problem with Christmas, Easter or any other religious holiday. Celebrate them any way you want. No one is asking you not to, least of all me. I have a Christmas tree, lights, presents, the whole schmeil, which I am not even sure is a word.

But if there is suddenly a set of rules... if saying "Season's Greetings" and "Happy Holidays" have now become a reason to avoid businesses, then what is next? Shall we force everyone to close on Sundays in order to honor the Sabbath in the proper American manner?

If Christmas is under attack, it mysteriously appears as if those compassionate conservatives are the only ones shooting. There wasn't a problem before the cowboy got a "mandate."

CodeWarrior  
Date: December 19, 2004 @ 10:03 PM
Even the Salvation Army Bell Ringers are now a pawn in the business game....
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1303031/posts
"Posted on 12/16/2004 3:40:13 PM PST by KMC1





..."It was already obvious to those paying attention that Target Corp. was out to doom itself this year by overseeing the biggest public relations faux pas in recent memory.

Target - better known as "party foul king of the frigid north" - has continued to add to its persona that its willing to take the money of the poor who must spend it in their cheap low-life stores, but they are unwilling to assist those same poor by allowing the Salvation Army to collect nickels and dimes from those who would so generously give them.

Today the news that broke on the Kevin McCullough Show for the first time nationally - Major Charles Kelly of the Newark Area Salvation Army announced that Wal-Mart Stores a dollar for dollar match of all donations collected by the Salvation Army at Wal-Mary locations nationally. The matching gift would end on Christmas Eve and the limit of the match would be a million dollars.

This is Target at their absolute corporate worst and conversely Wal-Mart at its very best."
==========SNIP==================
I disagree about it being the Great Wall O'China Mart at their very best. It's a marketing ploy plain and simple, and they know this will get them far more free advertising than if they spent the million on a few TV spot ads, hawking their foreign made toys. It's all about marketing...ALWAYS!

gdZiemann  
Date: December 19, 2004 @ 10:05 PM
" Just what are some of the things opposed by those who would eliminate our Judeo-Christian heritage? For one, we can’t have honesty. If the left’s ideas were honestly stated, the left would become an endangered species."

But that's just ignorant and requires ignoring everything Monkeyboy and his trainer Karl have already done. Like the story about Saddam and the WMDs. The fearsome Republican Guard. Ten-minute strike capabilities. Biological weapons to be deployed when US troops entered Baghdad. The story of Jessica Lynch. The story about Pat Tillman. Mission accomplished. The ground war is over. We have broken the back of the insurgency. Catastrophic success.

The right wing which currently holds power is so worried about the world finding out the truth that they're locking up the evidence as fast as the "CLASSIFIED" stamps can be made.

"Adm. Bob Inman, born Bobby Ray Inman in East Texas in 1931, may know more about U.S. intelligence matters than anyone. In the course of his 31-year career, he has served as director of the National Security Agency, vice director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, director of Naval Intelligence, and deputy director of Central Intelligence Agency—under both Republican and Democratic presidents."

Slate: And the administration has sealed most of their documents for years to come.

Inman: Yeah, the historians are going to have a field day in 30 or 40 years.

http://www.slate.com/id/2111163/

gdZiemann  
Date: December 19, 2004 @ 10:33 PM
mmnuc3 -- Sorry. The Irish Celts, circa 400-500 B.C. first came up with All Hallows Eve, a night on which they dressed up as witches and monsters to scare away any evil spirits who might be looking for a cozy winter hideaway. This included a bonfire in the middle of town and occasionally the sacrifice of a possessed villager.

When the Christians came along, they celebrated All Soul's Day (sometimes called the "Day of the Dead") which depending on the source "is always
November 2 (November 3rd if the 2nd falls on a Sunday)" or possibly Nov. 1, which also commonly called All Saint's Day.

On this day, Christian children would go begging for "soul cakes" (square cakes with currants) and, in exchange, offered prayers for the household.

Eventually, both traditions were merged for no good reason whatsoever, except perhaps to once again co-opt a pagan tradition in order to subvert and then ban it.

gdZiemann  
Date: December 19, 2004 @ 11:13 PM
I think the entire "Attack on Christmas" is merely an attempt to take everyone's attention away from the painfully obvious fact that since Nov. 2, suddenly terrorism is no longer a threat. Don't worry about them now. The really important issue is "Merry Christmas" and the implications of not using it.

What's our alert level today? Has it changed since October? Why or why not? What happened to the impending doom to be inflicted on us by the unknown unknowns if we're not ready with plastic sheeting and duct tape?

This is all a huge distraction designed to further tear the fabric of the American public by turning us on ourselves over something that normally is a non-issue except for the fringes on both ends of the spectrum. The Republicans use religion as a wedge to further divide us and misdirect the public discourse away from the questions which should be asked today.

Because while you were reading this, another 100 people just snuck over the Mexican border. One of them might be a terrorist. And there's not a chance in hell that he'll get caught.

Yeah, I know. Bush said he's going to double the staff of the Border Patrol. Unfortunately, he neglected to provide any funding, so we will continue to rely on the hunting skills of Texas and Arizona farmers as the front line of our national defense plan.

So listen. If the city puts up a big tree in the middle of town, lights it up and makes a spectacle out of it, it's a damn Christmas tree, okay? Doesn't matter what they call it. You can put a giant Star of David on top, or an angel or SpongeBob for all I care.

I'll still see a Christmas tree.

If you can't see it, too, you'll never begin to understand the rest of the problems the world needs to solve, much less help us to find a solution.

independentm...  
Date: December 19, 2004 @ 11:23 PM
What the average American calls/celebrates as Christmas IS an invention of the retailers.

CodeWarrior  
Date: December 19, 2004 @ 11:49 PM
We used to buy real Christmas trees. Now, we have fake ones...they are far less messy and require less clean up.

We used to believe in a government of the people, by the people, and for the people....now we have a fake one...it's far less money and requires less clean up.

For some troops, it probably seems less like a traditional Christmas, and more like "MERRY CHRISTMAS MR. LAWRENCE", the WW II, Prisoner of War flick starring David Bowie as a British POW held by the Japanese.

The message of Christ / Yeshua is love and tolerance, not war and intolerance.

"We are healthy only to the extent that our ideas are humane."
Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

War brings out the worst, and occasionally, the best in men and women.

And, the message of the Bible is that man should be humble, awed by the power and wisdom of God, but currently, the administration, who never admits they do anything wrong, is suffering a humongous case of hubris.

This arrogant hubris is something the great Kurt Vonnegut addresses...
"Just because some of us can read and write and do a little math, that doesn't mean we deserve to conquer the universe."
Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

and...in a season that stresses presents for the kiddos...
"Hello babies. Welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. At the outside, babies, you've got about a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of, babies: "Goddammit, you've got to be kind."
Kurt Vonnegut Jr., God Bless You Mr. Rosewater "

Amen Kurt...Amen.

And to close with one of my favorite Vonnegut quotes...from
"Slaughterhouse Five; or, The Children's Crusade: A Duty-Dance with Death"

"Chapter Two. ''When a Tralfamadorian sees a corpse, all he thinks is that the dead person is in a bad condition in that particular moment, but that same person is just fine in plenty of other moments. Now, when I myself hear that somebody is dead, I simply shrug and say what the Tralfamadorians say about dead people, which is 'So it goes'.''

"So it goes." AMEN!

CodeWarrior  
Date: December 19, 2004 @ 11:50 PM
typo....not far less money....was supposed to read,....far less messy...

darn those Freudian slips...I should never write posting after Christmas shopping :)

goldenpi  
Date: December 20, 2004 @ 3:57 AM
In the UK, few schools now dare to host a nativity scene. There are 147 recognised religions in this country - every one of which has legal protection. There is very little you can do without risking offending someone.

independentm...  
Date: December 20, 2004 @ 5:03 AM
OFFEND EVERYONE (...well, that's MY motto. :)

Happy whateverthefuckyouwannacallit

Shmoo

Max-Stone  
Date: December 20, 2004 @ 5:21 AM
Goldenpi, it seems as though humans choose not to be free. It is a shame really.

LetLightShine  
Date: December 20, 2004 @ 5:39 AM

It mysteriously appears as if those compassionate conservatives are the only ones complaining? There wasn't a problem before?

Well, I guess that is correct; there's a minimum 'problem' (conflict) when a person, or the majority of society, acquiesce to forces -- in this case, forces which have been bent on incrementally taking Christ out of Christmas or God out of our nation's heritage or public expression of Christian symbols.
But now that there is a formidable effort of resistance to that pattern, oops, there's a problem!

Yes, Jefferson and Madison did not want an establishment of religion.
But they would not want a eradication of it, either.
(There has been and still are powerful influences, and not just the ACLU, to eliminate 'God' from a myriad of traditional expressions -- from our schools to our coins to public images to you-name-it. If those influences were to run their course, Christianity might ultimately face persecution.)

If the Christians supposedly don't have anything to worry about, then:
What about those Christians in Philidelphia who were recently exercising their freedom of speech and religion in reading parts of God's Word aloud on the public street? They are facing prison terms!
Has anyone read about this?
I guess it's okay for gays to flaunt their gayness in public fashion such as parades that can offend others, but it's unacceptable for Christian fundamentalists to exercise freedom of speech by speaking verses from the Bible. Hmm.

This is America the way Jefferson and Madison envisioned?
Very doubtful, my friend.

"Our country was founded to protect the Christians from each other."
Historically, that is correct. And Christians should be tolerant of all, including those who don't share their faith. When that doesn't occur, as with the Puritans in the colony of Massachusetts, it's plain to see the disparity and unfairness -- and such a situation should be corrected!
But then there is the other extreme.
Should our nation descend to the depths of intolerance to not protect Christianity from being assailed?
Until recently, it seemed there was a lot of lethargy in that regard. Now that many conservatives are standing up and being strong, naturally they can expect to be vehemently opposed, of course. Liberals have had their way for quite a long time, but the pendulum has, at least for the moment, swung away from their grasp -- so here comes the predictably reactive kicking and screaming.
BTW, if the pendulum goes too far in EITHER direction (and that may occur), I will agree we need to steer it back... from either extreme. But it's refreshing to have a change of pace for awhile.

Another caveat: The Texas Cowboy (America's President), by record of his past deeds, does a disservice to present himself as anywhere close to being a true Christian -- because, as has been pointed out, the Bible strongly teaches that a person is as a person does, not just what he professes. George W. and Karl Rove are abject examples in the wrong direction; and though Scriptures tell us not to judge inappropriately, it also tells us that we 'shall know them by their deeds'.

Lothar2  
Date: December 20, 2004 @ 7:21 AM
gdZiemann wrote:
I think the entire "Attack on Christmas" is merely an attempt to take everyone's attention away from the painfully obvious fact that since Nov. 2, suddenly terrorism is no longer a threat. Don't worry about them now. The really important issue is "Merry Christmas" and the implications of not using it.

---
News flash, folks. THe attack on Christmas was started long before this season. Back in the 80's, the city I live in had a Christmas Program, that dated back to the 30's. At that time, it was compltely about the Christian beliefs of Christmas. Then, for the 50th performance, it was changed, probalby for the better. they added Christmas music from around the world, but still maintaned a Christian theme. This year, there were no traditionally Christian Christmas music.

Christian beliefs are being atacked everyday, in the desguise of religous sensitativity. It's now against the law in San Fransisco to teach the Decliration of Independance, because it includes the word God. It's against the rules to also teach the writings of George Washington for the same reason.

Teh first Amendment to the Constitution of the Untied Staes reads as follows:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Key here is Freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion. However, it appears that if you are Christian (to steal a line from George Orwell) some Religions are more free than others. In the name of Religions acceptance, any religion, other than Christian, is worthy to be taught in our schools, but then you get to Christian religions, they must be taught as mythology only, not as the basis for the forming of the United States.

pepe512000  
Date: December 20, 2004 @ 8:12 AM
Lothar2 You are right, Christmas has been under attack for many years..not just since 9-11, or the Bush government...
-----------------------------------------------------

Obedient Christians celebrate Christ's Birthday, His Death on the Cross, His Resuurection 365 days a year (366 for leap years). December 25th was the day chosen for his birthday party, and why shouldn't we celebrate that?..He's our best friend, and confident.

First of all, this;

Matthew 1:16
....and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ. (That's for you Code)

And then I found this wonderful article...not knowing the author, but fitting for the season.

Just a week before Christmas I had a visitor. This is how it happened. I just finished the household chores for the night and was preparing to go to bed when I heard a noise in the front of the house. I opened the door to the front room, and to my surprise, Santa himself stepped out from behind the Christmas tree. He placed his finger over his mouth so I would not cry out. "What are you doing?" I started to ask him.

The words choked in my throat, as I saw he had tears in his eyes. His usual jolly manner was gone. Gone was the eager boisterous soul we all know. He then answered me with a simple statement, TEACH THE CHILDREN! I was puzzled: What did he mean? He anticipated my question, and with one quick movement brought forth a miniature toy bag from behind the tree.

As I stood there bewildered, Santa said, Teach the Children! Teach them the old meaning of Christmas. The meaning that a now-a-day Christmas has forgotten!

Santa then reached in his bag and pulled out a FIR TREE and placed it on the mantle. Teach the Children that the pure green color of the stately fir tree remains green all year round, depicting the everlasting hope of mankind. All the needles point heavenward, making it a symbol of man's thoughts turning
toward heaven.

He again reached into his bag and pulled out a brilliant STAR. Teach the Children that the star was the heavenly sign of promises long ago. God promised a Savior for the world, and the star was the sign of fulfillment of that promise.

He then reached into the bag and pulled out a CANDLE. Teach the Children that the candle symbolizes that Christ is the light of the world, and when we see this great light we are reminded of He who displaces the darkness.

Once again he reached into his bag and then removed a WREATH and placed it on the tree. Teach the Children that the wreath symbolizes the eternal nature of love. Real love never ceases. Love is one continuous round of affection.

He then pulled out from his bag an ornament of HIMSELF. Teach the Children that Santa Claus symbolizes the generosity and good will we feel during the month of December.

He reached in again and pulled out a HOLLY LEAF. Teach the Children the holly plant represents immortality. It represents the crown of thorns worn by our Savior. The red holly berries represent blood shed by Him.

Next he pulled out a GIFT from the bag and said, "Teach the Children that God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. Thanks be to God for His unspeakable gift. Teach the Children that the wise men bowed before the holy babe and presented Him with gold, frankincense, and myrrh. We should give gifts in the same spirit as the wise men."

Santa then reached in his bag and pulled out a CANDY CANE and hung it on the tree. Teach the Children that the candy cane represents the shepherd's crook. The crook on the shepherd's staff helps bring back strayed sheep from the flock. The candy cane is the symbol that we are our brother's keeper.

He reached in again and pulled out an ANGEL. Teach the Children that it was the angels that heralded in the glorious news of the Savior's birth. The angels sang 'Glory to God in the highest, on earth, peace and good will.'

Suddenly I heard a soft twinkling sound, and from his bag he pulled out a BELL. Teach the Children that as the lost sheep are found by the sound of a bell, it should bring people to the fold. The bell symbolizes guidance and return.

Santa looked at the tree and was pleased. He looked back at me and I saw the twinkle was back in his eyes. He said, "Remember, teach the Children the true meaning of Christmas, and not to put me in the center, for I am but a humble servant of the One who is, and I bow down and worship Him, our Lord, our God."
_____________________________________
His gift to us was His death on the Cross. Our gift to Christ is our acceptance of Him for our salvation. That is the greatest gift we can bestow upon Him.

Lot of folks here have a lot of head knowledge, but the heart is where we need to be coming from.

If anyone here has never attended a candle-lighting Christmas Eve service, I hope you can take the time to check that out. It's a beautiful demonstration of how one small light in the darkness, can spread and grow to lighten up the darkest corners.


Since we've gotten into this political correctness thing, nothings been the same since.
People, if all we are hearing and listening to is the bad news of the day, it's no wonder people become depressed and bitter...but there are good things happening all around us in this world.
___________________________________
Mary did you know
That your baby boy will one day walk on water?
Mary did you know
That your baby boy will save our sons and daughters?
Did you know
That your baby boy has come to make you new?
This child that you've delivered
Will soon deliver you

Mary did you know
That your baby boy will give sight to a blind man?
Mary did you know
That your baby boy will calm the storm with his hand?
Did you know
That your baby boy has walked where angels trod?
And when you kiss your little baby
You've kissed the face of God

Mary did you know?
The blind will see
The deaf will hear
The dead will live again
The lame will leap
The dumb will speak
The praises of the Lamb

Mary did you know
That your baby boy is Lord of all creation?
Mary did you know
That your baby boy will one day rule the nations?
Did you know
That your baby boy is heaven's perfect Lamb?
This sleeping child you're holding
Is the Great I Am
___________________________________
gdZiemann I'm not posting lyrics.....I'm singing hymns :) Merry CHRISTmas All!

Lachatte  
Date: December 20, 2004 @ 8:50 AM
"Is Christmas a Hot Button Issue ?"
I guess you got your answer, Code. :)

INeedAlover  
Date: December 20, 2004 @ 9:18 AM
Can anyone find in the Bible where birthdays celecbrations are mentioned? There are only two, and on each of them, a true follower of God was murdered. That is how John the Baptist was murdered. His head on a platter was the birthday wish of a pagan ruler. So why would Jesus WANT his birthday celebrated??

pepe512000  
Date: December 20, 2004 @ 9:38 AM
INeedAlover I doubt very much if Jesus cares if you celebrate His birthday or not...what He does care about is your salvation, and that is very much Scriptural!

gdZiemann  
Date: December 20, 2004 @ 1:19 PM
"I doubt very much if Jesus cares if you celebrate His birthday or not"

Well thanks for clearing it up, pepe. Jesus doesn't care if Bill O'Reilly hates Jews.

And don't you think that if he returns as promised, a cross is going to be the last thing he wants to see? If they had killed him in Texas would we wear little electric chairs?

I'll have to bring this up at the next meeting of the Christmas Deconstruction Alliance.

At the last one, we discussed helping Homeland Security by building a wall between the border of Canada and the United States with the names engraved of every person that has been killed in the name of God. We decided that 4000 miles wasn't close to enough room to capture the roster of those which have been burned alive, drowned, enslaved and murdered by the Christians.

Then we looked at the Ten Commandments.

Bearing false witness is now not only a sacred Christian condition (Jim Bakker, Jerry Falwell, and a couple more televangelists whose names escape me), but our faith-based government now continually denies the very existence of its own department established solely for that very purpose. And if you've ever sold your home and all wordly goods and stood in the middle of a field somewhere waiting for the Rapture -- to precede the End of the World by mere moments -- then you know all too well the depths to which this commandment has been cast.

Killing is government and Pope-approved, along with torture and mutilation, as evidenced by such events as the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the extermination of the American Indian, slavery and now, the war in Iraq.

Coveting is very big with Republicans, but they seldom dwell there long since they just buy what they want. Covet = capitalism = Christmas.

Graven images? By the boatload. Oscars, Emmys, nativities, Mt. Rushmore, coins, and the ubiquitous grilled cheese sandwiches. You can't turn around in this country without bumping into a graven image.

Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy? We'd love to but WalMart is having a sale. And their ad said, "Merry Christmas." Must shop...

Well, we stopped there because all of the good deeds and piousness were bumming us out.

Then we realized that the Deconstruction Alliance wasn't really necessary. The Christians aren't attacking the godless heathens who don't make any effort to participate in the holiday season. Their targets are the ones who try, but aren't doing it right.

They'll deconstruct it just fine on their own.

gdZiemann  
Date: December 20, 2004 @ 2:11 PM
Here's a fine Christian that maybe you'd like to help. He just wrote to me today. God told him to.

FROM GIDEON KWAMI
BLOCK 18 ROOM 22
REFUGEE CAMP
ACCRA GHANA
ALTERNATIVE E-MAIL:(kwamigg@netscape.net)
PHONE NUMBER(:+233-244-124-468)

Good Day,
I have a proposal for you-this however is not mandatory nor will I in any manner compel you to honour against your will. I am Gideon Kwami,24 years old and the only son of my late parents Mr and Mrs Kwami.

I got your information in a Proffesional database when I was searching through internet for a reliable,honestand trustworthy person to entrust
this business with.I was simply inspired and motivated to pick your contact from the many names in the list of the directory after i, go into prayers/fasting.

Well, my father was the rebel leader of the liberian crisis at ealer last year before his sudden death But God knows the truth. My mother died when I was just 4 years old, and since then my father took me so special.

Before his death on march 12/2003 he called his friend who accompanied him to hospital and told him to call me, on my arrival to the hospital my father told me that he has the sum of twenty two million Dollars. (22,000,000 USD) he deposited in his name,in a security company in Ghana for safekeeping,And told me where he kept the documents of his secret funds deposited in Accra - Ghana,the most peaceful nation in Africa.

And i'm with all the documents which my father used to deposit the money,and he told me that he disguised the content to the security as Family Valuable for security Reason,and he told me that i shold not disclosed to the security company that the contant is money to avoid trace due to his position in Liberia.

Please i want you to stand as my fathers partnership to claim this money out from the security company. I am just 24 years old and a University undergraduate and really, I don't know what to do.I,contacted you because I have suffered a lot of set back as a result of incessant political crisis here in africa.

The death of my father actually brought sorrow to my life, I am in a sincere desire of your humble assistance in this regards. Your suggestions and ideas will be highly regarded.

It's my pleasure to bring to your notice that after my late father was murdered the liberian government siezed all my fathers belonging.

Moreso you should understand that due to the tension that was impossed on me i am curently in Ghana under the refugee camp to making sure that my life was safe.

Now permit me to ask these few question.

(1)Can you honestly help me as your son?

(2)Can I, completely trust you?

(3)what percentage of the total amount in question will be good for you after the money is in your account?

Please, Consider this and get back to me.

With regards.

Gideon Kwami.

pepe512000  
Date: December 20, 2004 @ 4:20 PM
gdZiemann Good grief, I hope you seriously don't think I'm here tryng to help you or anyone. I'm no councillor, and I certainly don't want that responsibility. No, I'm just vocal about my faith, and I was just responding to the Codes post here..darn him, he's such a little rebel rouser :)

By the way, do you feel you need help? :)

~Sigh~ I just really wish people would get out there into some of the mainstream "Full Gospel" churches just to see how they do make a difference in peoples lives. If all one does is watch the tv evangelists, one is not seeing the big picture....

That bit about the electric chairs? Good one! I'll have to remember that one....Merry Christmas George (Hey, wasn't that a line from It's A Wonderful Life?) :)

gdZiemann  
Date: December 20, 2004 @ 5:39 PM
"By the way, do you feel you need help?"

Yeah, I do as a matter of fact. I'm trying to figure out if the ability to warp the space-time continuum, as recently proven by NASA, is somehow responsible for ghosts.

I also can't figure out why the dog likes cat food better than dog food, despite the fact that I bop it on the head every time I catch it eating it.

If you write a song that varies between 9/16 and 21/32 time signatures, is it still possible to dance to it? And still be legal in Iola, Kansas?

Why do we worry about "insidious" decorations while genocide continues in Darfur? If everyone's window said "Merry Christmas," would God stop the killing? Or does it not matter because those dying are not Christians?

What about "Peace on Earth" being replaced with "Freedom is on the March"? Does that bother any of the righteous?

Why is a woman's breast obscene yet a man's is not, even if he weighs 500 lbs and has bigger boobs than Dolly Parton? Is this more obscene than the dead and dying of war on prime time news?

I think I would rather have my young impressionable daughter see a breast than an execution, as we were treated to yesterday. Does the FCC get letters about this obscenity? Why not? Is this not more important than the contents of Macy's ads?

The religious right wants to get up in arms over such petty matters as proper decoration etiquette while what little is left of the 'Holy Land" is the most unsafe place on earth.

Why don't they go instruct the people in Bethlehem about their decorations? They're obviously not doing it right. Jerusalem is divided into four sectors and three of them are not for Christians. Do we need to do this, too? Divide our cities? Do we start blowing each others churches up, too? That's a Holy Land tradition, you know.

But I'm most interested in the space-time continuum thing.

SkippyQSB  
Date: December 20, 2004 @ 5:44 PM
I realized it had all gone to hell when Barbara Streisand starting putting out Christmas albums. What the???




pepe512000  
Date: December 20, 2004 @ 6:10 PM
Uh, yeah, ok gdZiemann..I'll get back to you on those things..(wink, wink)

I'll ask someone what they think about that space time con-thingy..I know someone into that stuff...

By the way; The dog hates cat food; hates cat more.....just wants to see cat starve. Seen it all my life....



SkippyQSB  
Date: December 20, 2004 @ 6:10 PM
"... that no more blood sacrifices would have to be made, because he became the blood sacrifice for all humanity... "

Which is one of the reasons why I find it so hard to believe that the words in the bible are the words of Christ or of God. While Christ walked this earth he preached peace, yet the bible is filled with things about killing people for petty things like planting different crops next to one another.
God sent the message to free the slaves, yet the bible talks of selling people into slavery.

I wonder what the likes of Graham, Falwell, etc. would do if they were walking down the street and a man dressed in a tatered robe, with long hair, long beard walked up to them and said that God had just spoken to him and made him a messenger of His word? I think they'd have him locked up.


SkippyQSB  
Date: December 20, 2004 @ 6:11 PM
"The dog hates cat food"
Not true. Dogs prefer to eat ethnic.



"hates cat more"
This is true.



LetLightShine  
Date: December 20, 2004 @ 6:40 PM

Wow, that was quite a barrage by George. And I fully realize part of it is likely meant to be irreverent humor, yet it's hard to refrain from responding.

"Jesus doesn't care if Bill O'Reilly hates Jews."
[This commment may well be tongue-in-cheek.]

Oh, yes, Jesus does care if ANYone hates.
(Whoever hates another has murder in his heart.)

"And don't you think that if He returns as promised, a cross is going to be the last thing He wants to see? If they had killed Him in Texas would we wear little electric chairs?"

He came to suffer, die, and to give His life as a ransom for many. He knew what He would be getting into.
It was the Father's will that Christ would be the true Savior from the eternal consequences of sin to all who believe AND live their faith in ways that please Him.
So, no, the cross would not be spurned by Him when He returns.
Still, too much focus on images and symbols -- even the sacred cross -- is inappropriate and a potential stumbling block!

"At the last meeting [of the Christmas Deconstruction Alliance], we discussed helping Homeland Security by building a wall between the border of Canada and the United States with the names engraved of every person that has been killed in the name of God. We decided that 4000 miles wasn't close to enough room to capture the roster of those which have been burned alive, drowned, enslaved and murdered by the Christians."

At least by those CALLING themselves "Christians", as (what should be) otherwise distinct from those LIVING as Christians. And, yes, what you wrote did apply to a large segment of the highest powers of Catholicism in the Middle Ages and even beyond -- as your references to the Crusades, the Inquisition, and other ill-conceived endeavors in the name of religion have highlighted.
I concur: In the history of our nation, "Christians" and non-Christians participated in too many improper campaigns: the demise of many native Americans, the perpetuation of slavery, and in the 'pre-emptive' invasion of sovereign nations. And what a lamentable testimony and legacy it has left.

And even other than that, it would likewise have to be conceded, many despicable acts were and are done "in the name of God" or because "God told me to."
On the other hand, subtlety serves deceivers; the letter you included from a 'Gideon Kwami' shows how it is often more effective to achieve fraud (but a legal commercial objective is improperly blessed as fair game) when God's name is utilized in the pitch. Some folks have polished this technique to the level of a marketable skill. [sigh]
"Jim Bakker, Jerry Falwell, and several more televangelists whose names escape me . . ."
Yes, it's sad how those representing themselves as leaders or spokesman for the Christian community have misused their power and misled others. Fortunately, they don't speak for me or many others who can see through some of their unscriptural verbiage or positions. They may bear false witness, but please don't brand true Christianity per se by their stripes.

Waiting for the Rapture isn't something Christians should be doing, either. We're supposed to be living for the Lord in the here and now... and help others who are in need... while time remains.

"Coveting is very big with Republicans, but they seldom dwell there long since they just buy what they want. Covet = capitalism = Christmas."

Coveting is big with almost everybody. The Bible calls it a type of idolatry, and nominal Christians can become mired in temporal attractions just like anyone else -- materialism, power, lust, etc. And when they do, it is hoped that spiritual enlightenment alerts them in regard to their wayward path so they can be restored to where their God really wants them.
My take on Republicans is that they are often no better than anyone else, but many either think they are (or they may project that image). The majority ARE capitalist to the core, and that can be bad BY DEGREE. But what I just said can be likewise be applied to some non-Republicans as well!
As to Christmas, no argument that it is overly commercialized and self-serving in our economy.
In fact, if Jeshua made himself visibly present today, undoubtedly He would have some harsh words for what has been going on.

Graven images! That's part of the first commandment, and oh how the Catholic community has abused that one. Yet, they are not the only guilty party; various non-Catholic Christians (okay, Protestants) should share some of the blame too. People can get carried away with symbols and outward objects of Christianity; you're absolutely right in that regard.

What you wrote about keeping the Sabbath holy (sacred) . . .
Hmm, I guess it's okay to worship at church service and still stop by Wal-Mart on the way home?

"If everyone's window said 'Merry Christmas,' would God stop the killing? Or does it not matter because those dying are not Christians?"
Perhaps not, but it does matter.
God has allowed man free will, because His objective is to see who will voluntarily humble themselves and serve Him.
That, of course, opens up Satan's can of worms to do as much harm and tempting as God will let him get away with. We all have a choice how to live our lives and whether to accept the Gospel or not, but not a choice as to the ultimate (eternal) consequences of turning our back on God.
The quandary of the ages has been why God, being so good, allows so much bad to happen.
As I say, it goes to the heart of His decision about the freedom He wants people to have in choosing to live for Him or self. And only with His help can we be able to choose the former rather than the latter.
The key is that this life -- with its suffering and stress and sadness -- is temporary, and we can look forward to a hereafter with peace and perfection.

"What about 'Peace on Earth' being replaced with 'Freedom is on the March'? Does that bother any of the righteous?"
Actually, no one is truly righteous in the eyes of God the Father except by the imputed righteousness from His Son (Christ) that we get by faith in Him. Our own good deeds are insufficient to save ourselves, but the Lord requires faith to be active with loving kindness as the instrument of keeping His comandments -- to the best of our ability with His help. When professed Christians fall into sin -- and it had better not be a hypocritical or vile, sin-filled life that we're talking about here -- they can get forgiveness and then repentantly strive to do better, with assistance from the Holy Spirit.
(And sometimes, the best 'peace' we can expect is peace of mind and spirit. 'Peace on earth' is elusive.)

"We realized that the Christmas Deconstruction Alliance wasn't really necessary.
The Christians aren't attacking the godless heathens who don't make any effort to participate in the holiday season. Their targets are the ones who try, but aren't doing it right.
They'll deconstruct it just fine on their own."

It would not necessarily hurt the true cause of Christ if they do (deconstruct it, that is).
There are so many things more important than the celebration of His birth.

P.S. For perspective, how many people were killed in the twentieth century by the German war machine and, most of all, by Stalin? (I won't even start counting other tolls to be tallied from tyrants and totalitarianism such as the Pol Pot regime, etc.)
That total number dwarfs the sum of all those killed by misguided "Christians" for the span of ALL history by a staggering ratio.
And, yes, I realize the world's population in the last hunred years has a role to play in the math, but one just can't escape the TOWERING number of deaths caused by secular military action and despotism by contrast.

Jazzmary2U  
Date: December 20, 2004 @ 8:01 PM
Thank you, gd.. and Code, and all who choose to celebrate (or not) the holidays in the wonderfully diverse experiment that we call the USA... I find the bleating of the uberreligious patently offensive.. and as an American, I excercise my inalienable right to celebrate with sounds of music, acts of love, and hopes for peace as I spiritually see fit.. don't see how that threatens anyone, don't care if I do... I don't shop at the malls, don't bake fruitcakes, don't expect everyone to quote word-for-word my dogma.. but I do work for justice and peace in my life, in my neighborhood, in my world. And as the Winter Solstice descends upon us, the light in my window heralds the beginning of the new cycle.. That, my friends, is the essence of hope. Happy holidays, all!

ShadowMom  
Date: December 20, 2004 @ 8:02 PM
Did you just say God is "pro-choice?" Sorry, this thread is getting a little heavy. :)

gdZiemann  
Date: December 20, 2004 @ 8:03 PM
"how many people were killed in the twentieth century by the German war machine"

I really, really wish you had not gone there.

WARNING! WARNING! GODWIN'S LAW VIOLATION ABOUT TO OCCUR!! WARNING! WARNING!

Hitler was a Catholic. A campaign against the "godless movement" was announced in 1933. Hitler attacked communists for the spread of atheism.

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Pretty much the same thing Bill O'Reilly said, isn't it?

Author Jim Walker points out, "Hitler's anti-Semitism grew out of his Christian education. Christian Austria and Germany in his time took for granted the belief that Jews held an inferior status to Aryan Christians. Jewish hatred did not spring from Hitler, it came from the preaching of Catholic priests and Protestant ministers throughout Germany for hundreds of years. The Protestant leader, Martin Luther, himself, held a livid hatred for Jews and their Jewish religion. In his book, On the Jews and their Lies, Luther set the standard for Jewish hatred in Protestant Germany up until World War II. Hitler expressed a great admiration for Martin Luther."

Walker also advises future generation not to forget that "Adolph Hitler could not have come into power without the support of the Protestant and Catholic churches and the German Christian populace."

Do not forget to add in those two brief moments when the cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were vaporized, thanks to that quaint, religious man known as Harry Truman, who claimed to never lose a minute's sleep over it. This being after the march of death across the Phillipine Islands.

You better add it up again.

ShadowMom  
Date: December 20, 2004 @ 8:03 PM
Sorry, meant that for LetLightShine, Jazzmary. And Happy holidays to you, too!

Jazzmary2U  
Date: December 20, 2004 @ 8:31 PM
Thank you, ShadowMom.. :hug:

In-Flames  
Date: December 20, 2004 @ 9:31 PM
www.whatacrappypresent.com

hehe :D

LetLightShine  
Date: December 20, 2004 @ 10:16 PM

"Do not forget to add in those two brief moments when the cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were vaporized, thanks to that quaint, religious man known as Harry Truman, who claimed to never lose a minute's sleep over it. This being after the march of death across the Phillipine Islands."

"You better add it up again."

In just the twentieth century alone, without even arguing about the category of Hitler's toll (6 million), and even counting Truman's atom bombs (ultimately less than 2 million) as 'Christian-directed', secular Stalin holds the all-time record at over 20 million -- and he did not claim to be a Christian! And, yeah, we should consider Cambodia in the mix as well. So, I guess you could "add it up again", too.
When all is tallied, what I said previously still stands: "That total number dwarfs the sum of all those killed by misguided 'Christians' for the span of ALL history by a staggering ratio."

However, even if both you and I miscalculate categories and differ in the final figures, the real issue is nominally professing 'Christians' vs. sincere Christians.
In Jesus' day, the ultra-religious Pharisees and Saducess could say all the buzz words and go through all the motions -- but where were their hearts? Both Christ and John the Baptist called them open tombs and even a bunch of snakes. (I think we could at least agree to Hitler being a vicious snake at minimum.)
Hypocrites and deceivers in positions of authority are not in any better camp than secular. In fact, Jesus once said that an unfaithful believer won't get any better treatment than those who don't believe at all.
So this is where the most important point is to be made.

Bleatings of uberriligious people? I guess a person trying to follow the faith as the Bible teaches is overly religious in the eyes of some, even if that person is sincere (and is not relying on his own merit or righteousness, as my previous post made clear)? Hmm.
Interesting.

LetLightShine  
Date: December 20, 2004 @ 10:22 PM

"The Protestant leader, Martin Luther, himself, held a livid hatred for Jews..."

Where is the evidence for that?
This man was not just a Bible scholar -- he tried to live the faith. AND he knew about the verse that says whoever hates others has murder in his heart.
I just have trouble accepting that unless I read it in his own words. So, someone, please furnish it if you can.

LetLightShine  
Date: December 20, 2004 @ 10:25 PM

What is Jim Walker's documentation on that issue?

LetLightShine  
Date: December 20, 2004 @ 10:32 PM

. . . the "livid hatred" issue, I mean.

gdZiemann  
Date: December 20, 2004 @ 10:37 PM
Jim Walker's text
http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm

gdZiemann  
Date: December 20, 2004 @ 10:43 PM
Where in the world did you get 6 million for Hitler's death toll?

50-60 million people died in WWII.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=WWII+death+toll&btnG=Search

gdZiemann  
Date: December 20, 2004 @ 10:46 PM
The documentation on Martin Luther and his opinion of the Jews:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/Luther_on_Jews.html

gdZiemann  
Date: December 20, 2004 @ 11:03 PM
I hadn't actually read the Luther text before. I thought the title kind of spoke for itself.

"...set fire to their synagogues or schools..."

"I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed."

"I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach"

"that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping"

"First, that their synagogues be burned down, and that all who are able toss in sulphur and pitch; it would be good if someone could also throw in some hellfire. That would demonstrate to God our serious resolve and be evidence to all the world that it was in ignorance that we tolerated such houses, in which the Jews have reviled God, our dear Creator and Father, and his Son most shamefully up till now but that we have now given them their due reward."

"My essay, I hope, will furnish a Christian (who in any case has no desire to become a Jew) with enough material not only to defend himself against the blind, venomous Jews, but also to become the foe of the Jews' malice, lying, and cursing, and to understand not only that their belief is false but that they are surely possessed by all devils. May Christ, our dear Lord, convert them mercifully and preserve us steadfastly and immovably in the knowledge of him, which is eternal life. Amen."

Another compassionate conservative.

You're with them, or you're against them, as Our Leader says.

gdZiemann  
Date: December 20, 2004 @ 11:05 PM
Any light shining yet?

gdZiemann  
Date: December 20, 2004 @ 11:07 PM
Maybe Luther was just mad because they didn't say "Merry Christmas."

LetLightShine  
Date: December 20, 2004 @ 11:14 PM

"Where in the world did you get 6 million for Hitler's death toll?"

I'm not considering combat. With respect to murdering people . . . who killed more?
Hitler's ('Christian'-inspired?) regime was responsible for the deaths of about six million Jews, but secular Stalin was guilty of over twenty million murders.

LetLightShine  
Date: December 20, 2004 @ 11:17 PM

"Any light shining yet?"

I'm gauging the amount of lumens being emitted.



LetLightShine  
Date: December 20, 2004 @ 11:19 PM

People will fail and fall.
But The Light of the world never fails.

LetLightShine  
Date: December 20, 2004 @ 11:22 PM

Luther has been discredited -- er, that is, he discredited himself.
I admit that is a shock; but it's good to know the truth.

gdZiemann  
Date: December 20, 2004 @ 11:46 PM
27 million civilians died in World War II.

"I'm not considering combat"

Then you're not considering reality.

Do we not count the battles of the Crusades? The purges of the Inquisition? The "winning" of the West?

Almost every war ever fought has been over religion, as is each and every one being fought today, all over the globe.

Hitler provided Luther's requested "hellfire." He is responsible for each and every person that died in that long conflict.

He did exactly what his Church had been asking for, or more accurately, demanding. He probably died thinking he was a good Christian, was fulfilling God's will, and was certainly destined for heaven.

It starts with telling us what the "proper" Christmas display is.

sinai  
Date: December 20, 2004 @ 11:47 PM
are you sitting there arguing that hitler was a better person by ONLY killing 6 million compared to 20 million?

my god that is disgusting, and quite possibly the worst arguement i have ever heard.

sinai  
Date: December 20, 2004 @ 11:47 PM
sorry ziemann, that aint met for you...we simulposted

LetLightShine  
Date: December 20, 2004 @ 11:53 PM
"It starts with telling us what the 'proper' Christmas display is."

Actually, it starts in the hearts of those who call themselves Christians (but whose deeds don't follow their profession of faith) who try to impose their will on others without proper regard for Yeshua's perspective (how God wants us to interact with others).

gdZiemann  
Date: December 20, 2004 @ 11:55 PM
We won't get fooled again.

LetLightShine  
Date: December 21, 2004 @ 12:04 AM

"Are you sitting there arguing that Hitler was a better person by ONLY killing 6 million compared to 20 million?"

Not really. That issue was part of a point about a secular leader in the twentieth century (Stalin) murdering considerably more people than 'Christian'-inspired Nazis. Stalin did his murdering apart from military combat, and I was trying to make a distinction among murders involving so-called Christian regimes vs. secular regimes for the century just ended.
This statistical comparison was actually only one of the issues that got play, but not for the reason you asked about.

LetLightShine  
Date: December 21, 2004 @ 12:08 AM

"We won't get fooled again."

We might not get fooled, but we still might become compelled against our will (to face discrimination or even persecution), though we should pray that such won't happen.

gdZiemann  
Date: December 21, 2004 @ 12:30 AM
Exactly. It's the "compelled against our will" part that worries me.

LetLightShine  
Date: December 21, 2004 @ 12:35 AM

Yep; me too.