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anti-piracy war is about to spill over into home
File-swapping foes exert P2P pressure
By Declan McCullagh
Staff Writer, CNET News.com
August 13, 2002, 6:48 AM PT
http://news.com.com/2100-1023-949533.html
WASHINGTON--The anti-piracy war is about to spill over onto the home front. Until now, the entertainment industry has relied on civil lawsuits aimed at companies, not individuals, to limit widespread copyright infringement on peer-to-peer networks. Napster fell to legal assaults, and MP3.com soon came under fire by the recording industry. MP3Board.com, Scour.com, and Sharman Networks, which markets Kazaa , have been targets of the entertainment industry's legal fusillades against suspected copyright infringers. Now, however, the entertainment industry is revising its strategy. The new plan appears to extend the target beyond companies with an apparent declaration of legal warfare against individuals who the industry believes are swapping illicit songs or movies through peer-to-peer networks. The outcome could include jail time for those convicted of wrongful file swapping. This move comes as copyright holders are striving to combat the continued popularity of peer-to-peer networks, which permit millions of people to link their PCs to a massive collection of files, some legal to distribute and some not. Napster's courtroom demise has not ended the popularity of such services, which are less centralized and more difficult to dismember with one legal stroke. The new strategy relies on a two-pronged approach. Part one, as previously reported by CNET News.com, appears to widen legal efforts to include civil lawsuits against individuals. Trading copyrighted wares without permission generally runs afoul of current federal law, which means that the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA), if it chooses could pursue the matter in court. That has some benefits: If the RIAA wins a judgment, it can take a cut of the defendant's future paychecks and inheritances, and the debt does not disappear even if that person files for bankruptcy. But suing individual pirates is expensive. Some of the most prolific file-swappers may have few assets to seize, and trying to hold parents financially responsible for their teenager’s legally dubious online activities could become a public-relations nightmare. Swap a song, go to jail?
Enter part two of the new strategy, which seeks to enlist the resources of the federal government in an attempt to put peer-to-peer pirates in federal prison. Last Friday, Reuters reported that some of the most senior members of Congress are pressuring the Justice Department to invoke a little-known law: the No Electronic Theft (NET) Act. Under the NET Act, signed by President Clinton in 1997, it is a federal crime for a person to share copies of copyrighted products such as software, movies or music with friends and family members if the value of the work exceeds $1,000. Violations are punishable by one year in prison, or if the value tops $2,500, not more than five years in prison. That's a mighty weapon to wield against peer-to-peer pirates, especially when so many Americans are potential federal felons, but it seems likely that the Justice Department will honor Congress' request. The agency already has used the NET Act to imprison software pirates, a move that tech companies hailed as "an important component of the overall effort to prevent software theft." During his confirmation hearing in June 2001, Attorney General John Ashcroft told Congress that, "Given the fact that much of America’s strength in the world economy is a result of our being the developer and promoter of most of the valuable software, we cannot allow the assets that are held electronically to be pirated or infringed. And so we will make a priority of cybercrime issues." Neither the Justice Department nor the RIAA commented when contacted on Monday. A copy of the letter from Congress, seen by CNET News.com, complains of "a staggering increase in the amount of intellectual property pirated over the Internet through peer-to-peer systems." The 19 members of Congress--including Sen. Joseph Biden, D-Del., Rep. James Sensenbrenner, R-Wisc., and Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif.--urged Ashcroft "to prosecute individuals who intentionally allow mass copying from their computer over peer-to-peer neworks." Peter Jaszi , a law professor at American University who is a critic of recent additions to copyright law, says he welcomes the idea of prosecutions under the NET Act. "It's positive in the sense that this decision is going to make everyone aware of what the real stakes in this contest are," Jaszi said. On the other hand, he said, "I think (the industry) is going to have a tremendously difficult time trying to find judges and juries who will convict individuals who are engaging in content sharing of this type." Any NET Act prosecution could send a chill through the entire peer-to-peer community inside the United States, with possible prison time for what most people seem to view as a harmless activity--illegal, perhaps, but easy to forgive--like speeding on an interstate highway. Jaszi says any future trial "may become a trial of the whole question of whether we regard content sharing" as a criminal act. Closing a loophole
Rampant file-swapping is precisely the activity that the NET Act was designed to punish. Rep. Bob Goodlatte, R-Va., the co-chairman of the Congressional Internet Caucus, drafted the NET Act to close what had become known as the "LaMacchia Loophole." In 1994, David LaMacchia was a junior at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology who was charged with wire fraud for creating a file-swapping site on the Internet. But a federal judge dismissed the criminal charges, ruling that although LaMacchia could be sued in civil court, he was not guilty as charged. "It is not clear that making criminals of a large number of consumers of computer software is a result that even the software industry would consider desirable," U.S. District Judge Richard Stearns ruled . A second section of the NET Act that does not include the $1,000 minimum limit could make prosecutions even easier. If a person links to a peer-to-peer network and shares copyrighted content against the law in "expectation” that others will do the same, that triggers felony penalties automatically. Separately, Reps. Howard Berman, D-Calif., and Howard Coble, R-N.C., have introduced a bill that would permit nearly unchecked electronic disruptions if a copyright holder has a "reasonable basis" to believe that piracy is occurring on a computer connected to a peer-to-peer network.
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User Comments
(These do not necessarily reflect the beliefs of this site)
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princess-angry
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Date: August 13, 2002 @ 6:55 PM
first post!!!
well you cna't do that because you have to go after about 293289438943438795745784 or more people!!!!! |
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princess-angry
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Date: August 13, 2002 @ 6:58 PM
and you know.... all this is just costing them money!!!!!! so if they want to blow if off on this crap instead of making them ahave a good image.... well obviosly they don't care about how other think of them and they are pitiful in this matter.... an organization that is asking for a good drip down the drain...... |
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princess-angry
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Date: August 13, 2002 @ 7:02 PM
yep they are!!!! pi.ti.ful!!! |
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PetulaClark
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Date: August 13, 2002 @ 7:23 PM
Yes, this is NOT the time to quit. Change your logon name, back-up your files, change your ISP, make it difficult for the Justice Department to track you down - but don't stop sharing files!
I'm going to stop buying new CD's. |
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shoshidge
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Date: August 13, 2002 @ 8:03 PM
They haven't passed the law yet, and I doubt they could anyway. They're just trying to scare people away from file sharing until they can figure out their next step. |
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PetulaClark
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Date: August 13, 2002 @ 9:50 PM
I'll be trading music in prison. |
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TheWitchingHour
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Date: August 13, 2002 @ 11:11 PM
Before I let them tax me I'll stop working become male prostitute and porn video star, tax that you bastards!
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Spica
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Date: August 13, 2002 @ 11:25 PM
i wonder if RIAA/MPAA ever "cooked their books".
if i ever go to prison, i want to be locked up with a bunch of RIAA executives.
i'd be taking apart the walls and shovin the bricks up their asses all day long.
(unless they enjoy this crap, then i'd just drown them all in the toilet.) |
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Spica
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Date: August 13, 2002 @ 11:30 PM
...and america could do much better without this entertainment and software industry bullshit.
we fucking feed half of the world, our economy doesnt need some dumb songs or movies to stay alive. |
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crawdd
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Date: August 14, 2002 @ 12:13 AM
John Asscroft was talking about software, as in corporations porating windoze. He didn't say music and movies. The RIAA may make this up to scare us, but they're so damn easy to see through. |
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JCASTELLAIN
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Date: August 14, 2002 @ 12:22 AM
Blame Billy G for creating the software platform by which file-sharing can happen.Its like saying 'Here people have a chocolate, but mind you don't eat it!'.And how many of us have a favourite cassette of a friends CD playing in our car!.Hey even quoting what a Article allegedly says(like the one above)could be construed as file-sharing.Even reading an Enzine is 'File sharing'.How stupid is this gonna get?....Hey.. when all the population of the world are behind bars there will be a new meaning to the word 'file sharing'.You know ,the metal variety for filing through iron bars!
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mp3manlou
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Date: August 14, 2002 @ 12:24 AM
i will absolutely kill all of my friends who buy cds, and i am takin all of my stuff outta my shared folders!!! until spica's plan comes to life in war forum. seriously, if anyone knows anyone who getsw arrested from this, put it in a forum. i just my first online computer that wasnt so slow it was only a typewriter in june, and before never followed computers or riaa, or what was better, macs or pcs, so someone tell me how they do this and is it serious??? |
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mp3manlou
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Date: August 14, 2002 @ 12:25 AM
and for the first guy, forgot nickname and am using annoying as hell touchpad so dont wanna scroll up cause mouse is on old pc rite now, they would arrest a few people and everyone else would get scared and stop sharing 1 by 1. |
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JCASTELLAIN
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Date: August 14, 2002 @ 12:26 AM
And of course everyone thats downloaded my mp3's
and made a compilation CD...I want my money now!
Or I'll spend the rest of my life sueing you at great(my)expense!.....sure...right! |
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ChillinBuzz
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Date: August 14, 2002 @ 12:27 AM
"Under the NET Act, it is a federal crime for a person to share copies of copyrighted products such as software, movies or music with friends and family members if the value of the work exceeds $1,000" - er, that'll be ok if I only shared with my family. Heh heh, stupid laws. And although we all chat over the net, I think 'friend' is used more here to define people we know personally. So that law is screwed already.
Besides, I can hardly see my mum and my brother getting me busted.
I think they're monitoring us in the UK already - I am a heavy user of WinMX (and will continue to be, hell I'll put it on the computers in jail as well - if they let me near one) and my so-called '24 hour' IP address is now staying static for a week. Paranoia :D
Is it me or are the American congress and businesses trying to alienate themselves from the world? This'll end up as a very ugly electronic cold war at this rate. |
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jjoocc
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Date: August 14, 2002 @ 1:24 AM
Thank god I don't live in the US. Must be the stupidest people in the world living there. =) |
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Spwee
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Date: August 14, 2002 @ 4:38 AM
urrrmmphhh..stupidest people?
jjoocc, i don't know a single country that isn't totally absurd in some way or another..
stupid has become another name for 'the human gene pool' on this planet
but yes..GOD ARE THEY STUPID..well greedy actually..but stupid if they think this stuffs gonna fly with the american public
i still don't believe they're gonna do shit..besides spy a little bit, tear down some peer-to-peer here and there, and bust certain people found to be mass mass mass downloading files for monetary distribution..i bet some of the riaa's kids file share for shit sakes
gradually these laws will be dismissed like a bad case of witchcraft, a new era of digital music will emerge and filesharing will be seen as mere pasttime by most, although certain industries will attempt to keep up the pressure
but in the most absurd situation if they spy on my computer and the law shows up..i think i might sue them for getting me hooked on their junk media, "i'm an addict," i'll declare.."they got me hooked" :cry: or i'll sue them for invasion of privacy, shoot the biggest and best
laws are being made contradictory by all this thoughtless rampant lawmaking right now
think about it..the courts will be a mess..
..ever heard of legal precedent, computer spying on file-sharers will tranlate into computer spying on POLITICIANS, computer spying on THE RIAA, computer spying on THE GOVERNMENT, computer spying on CORPORATIONS, i mean anyone who has a computer can now be LEGALLY TAPPED..basically the courts won't allow it..they'll see it for what it is..bullying..america won't look so stupid then jjoocc
utter nonsense |
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Svensta
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Date: August 14, 2002 @ 6:54 AM
Spwee, don't let the american rhetoric rile you up, they bark that stuff here and there, I think mainly, to get a rise out of us. Fact is, as the USA goes the world goes. If others (want and do) rant about it, they are like the Association trying to uninvent p2p. This is the way of things, for good or ill. Deal.
As for this article, it's NOTHING that hasn't been said nearly a hundred times in the past year, and a lot more recently. Yeah, suing, blah blah blah targetting individual sharers blah blah blah the NET (passed FIVE years ago) blah blah blah. Nothing new here. They can't do this to the level that would prove effective. |
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mp3manlou
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Date: August 14, 2002 @ 10:22 AM
has anyone actrually been arrested on dis crap though??? |
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Spwee
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Date: August 14, 2002 @ 2:28 PM
i am hardly riled svensta, but that might have helped if i was, think of me as a logistics sharp shooter, wildgun of the west out to shoot down bullcrap..
WHEREVER IT LIES
hey this is truth town round here fella..you're gonna have to leave your bullcrap at the sign post |
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Spwee
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Date: August 14, 2002 @ 2:34 PM
oh that whole spill of mine was about the article..
some people don't read between the lines very well around here :)
"utter nonsense"...about the issue..could care less, call us stupid
we are stupid.. |
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Spwee
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Date: August 14, 2002 @ 2:47 PM
by the way svensta..emotion exists in the world
deal |
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ChillinBuzz
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Date: August 14, 2002 @ 4:26 PM
Bullcrap. Heh. :D |
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mp3manlou
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Date: August 14, 2002 @ 10:34 PM
spica, i agree that most music is stupid, but some of it is good, and if i didnt have the occasional sitcom sometimes id go insane. but dis is just insane. riaa just think about what uve become, and be in shame. |
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Svensta
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Date: August 15, 2002 @ 7:16 AM
BTW: Spweester, that "Deal." was meant to the bitter folk that love to demonize the USA, not you. They can't handle that the US is the forerunner of the world economy and has a fairly tyrannical idea of morally policing the world. I'm not altogether in love with the idea myself, and I am a proud American.
I just mean that the US has all the power they need, and there will never a shift to teh extent that will alter that o nthe world stage. It was a one word answer to that religious saying about having "the serenity to accept the things you cannot change"
I didn't mean you :P This is a forum. Where else are we supposed to rant, I ask you? Shoot from the hip and often. |
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Spwee
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Date: August 15, 2002 @ 2:36 PM
truth town just took my badge away and locked me up for being an ass, i'm so stupid stupid stupid (hitting himself in the head in typical tom-green fashion) |
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forrix
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Date: August 16, 2002 @ 2:18 AM
all this CAN be is a scare tactic! we may see a few high-profile cases where they spend their money suing individuals; individuals that will immediately gather press for them and make it a high-profile case that will get spread from the evening news to the tabloids. that way, their court costs are also "spreading the word" - and that's where their money would pay off; in further brainwashing the public. as stupid as they are, they can't possibly believe it plausable to sue every file trader; not even 0.001% of them... it would be impossible. even suing some idiot sharing 40gigs of mp3s and movies wouldn't be worth it for them - it has to be an extreemly high-profile case - thus a high-profile person (like maybe one of ozzy's kids! -that would suck for them). they ain't gonna bother none of us. period. i'd bet the farm (AND my collection of mp3s) :biggrin: |
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Spwee
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Date: August 16, 2002 @ 3:59 AM
hop on the bandwagon forrix
there's plenty of room
stamping out filesharing is a pipedream
the thing i like the most: the people are going to sue back hard, for infringing on privacy rights..and THEIR 'FAIR USE' RIGHT TO FILESHARE.
The courts will agree that COPYRIGHT LAWS ARE MOOT WHEN IT COMES TO DIGITAL MEDIA..too abundant, too easy to reproduce, too reinforced by business and media, and too easy to trade |
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Spica
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Date: August 16, 2002 @ 9:08 AM
the RIAA are abusing Federal Law for financial gain. period. |
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forrix
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Date: August 17, 2002 @ 4:53 AM
sadly, yer right spwee.
stamping out filesharing is a pipedream.
..but like i've posted elsewhere (and never gotten so much as a peep of an idea in response) is : WHAT'S THE ALTERNATIVE TO THE RIAA? how the hell are artists going to get compensated anymore? enhanced cd's? more tours? merchandise? the artist's MUSIC has been taken away... and the value is forever gone. artists must find value elsewhere... but WHERE. |
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mp3manlou
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Date: August 17, 2002 @ 2:01 PM
if this goes through like the riaa wants it to, p2p as we know it will be destroyed. they are punishing few people to put fear into other people. there are billions of people on these networks, they cannot all be stopped, but those people that had 4 gb of files that kept their computer on all nite sharing may not anymore, and i dont like that. the riaa must die, and if i pay 55$ a month for dsl ill do whatever i want online! if someone pays 15$ for a cd theyll do whatever they want with it. plus, if you are not making a profit from sharing the cd, than that means that it should not be illegal. RIAA SPYES READING THIS, ANSWER ME THIS. HOW THE HELL DO YOU THINK THERE ARE SO MANY DIFFERENT COPIES OF THE SAME SONG ON GNUTELLA??? PEOPLE BUY THE FREAKIN CDS TO PUT THEM ON GNUTELLA!!! AND THE P15% LOSS IS ONLY BECAUSE OF
1. world trade, many companies went out of business or are going bankrupt, and this has affected many people.
2. most of te music that came out this year sucks! the music in december and august last year on the radio was great, this year all i hear is junk!!! cds are haviing millions of copies sold, and artists are rich. how is the riaa losing money??? |
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Doches
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Date: August 17, 2002 @ 3:01 PM
Where the hell are the RIAA and US Government spies gonna find your name and address? Unless your dumb enough to use a central protocol like KaZaA, which tracks your IP and Dl's. What are they going to do with Gnutella? Set up port sniffers and read all our network traffic? WTF? Hell, if they can afford the hardware, they'll be paying the salaries for every CS major in every college in America...(how many of them fileshare? hmm? ;p) |
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Spwee
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Date: August 18, 2002 @ 4:41 PM
nice input doches
and good point as well mp3manlou, files on peer networks equal sales for the record labels
which brings me to FORIX,
what's the alternative to the riaa:
number one an alternative isn't really necessary,
the industry will work ITSELF out, it will adapt, along with the riaa, OUT OF NECESSITY
i mean no one has yet to show that filesharing is necessarily hurting the industry or the riaa at all, if anything the riaa is hurting itself
if you need an alternative: HOW ABOUT SPONSORED MUSIC! Imagine if sony corporation signed a deal with elton john, 2 year contract, in exchange elton delivers 3 albums while sony pays for all studio expenses plus marketing costs and elton's salary. Elton would get a standard percent of cd sales as would Sony. Sony would then hold exclusive rights to distribute eltons music, MEANING OFFERING MP3S FOR SALE OR FOR FREE ONLINE. Think of the FREE ADVERTISING sony would receive. Logon to sony, get a few advertisements shoved in your face, then access eltons latest work and download for free. Elton would be able to cash in on concerts as well.
THERE! There's your frickin alternative. The attitude is for all the bullshit hype THAT MUSIC IS DYING OR SOMETHING. Minus real pirates, what else has filesharing done but support music. The only fuss is the riaa. and as manlou pointed out the economy is down while mainstream music is sucking at the moment
now as for the artists, and i think this needs saying finally..fuck the artists! i mean yes we revere our music idols, but we make them rich for shit sakes, and worship them, and give them an outlet for their feelings, they live as gods for shit sake, AND THEY ARE STANDING ON THE FENCE FOR SHIT SAKES! SPINELESS FUCKING BASTARDS
Madonna didn't give two cents about filesharing-and ask her if her sales are low. FUCK NO! Because she's fucking fearless that's why. She doesn't stop to worry about sales falling. She MARKETS HERSELF. And i'm sick of these artists who complain about filesharing like fuckin metallica. If metallica were a no-name band, they'd fileshare their ass off, and distribute the music the way independents do online.
AS OF YET, most artists are taking the easy way out, they either stand on the fence and say nothing, or they blame the actual fans for any kind of unproven lag in sales
MUSIC FANS CONTINUALLY VOICE THE NEED FOR ARTIST SUPPORT, BUT WHAT ARTIST HAS VOICED SUPPORT FOR THE FAN ON THIS ISSUE!
If filesharing is proven to increase sales, eventually you'll hear them support us.
If filesharing proves to dramatically hurt sales then the ARTIST WILL DECLARE US CRIMINALS, ALL OF US!
SO FUCK THE SPINELESS BASTARD ARTISTS. But the industry will work itself out anyway. |
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Maffew
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Date: August 18, 2002 @ 8:58 PM
You all sound pretty whiny to me...
Fuck the artists? They're the ones who wrote the music you want bad enough to do something you know is illegal.
Why do you violate copyright laws again? It seems like it's to avoid spending 15 bucks on a CD or 40 bucks on software that a lot of people put a lot of work into. If you don't think it was very much work, write the music yourself, write the software yourself... just try to get a label to pick up your music or someone to buy your program.
To me, many of you sound like lazy cheapskates that just download free software (that someone else wrote) in order to steal music or movies or whatever that someone else put a lot of work into. And worst of all, you don't think the people that created or the people that helped create and publicize these works deserve anything. |
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Maffew
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Date: August 18, 2002 @ 9:03 PM
One other thing... you think it's a big problem to prosecute those that pirate music, movies and software? They don't have to prosecute, just let them sieze your computer, your cds, your disks, your tapes, everything that could be anything to do with anything.... then it doesn't fucking matter if they prosecute.
(they've do it, trust me) |
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Spwee
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Date: August 19, 2002 @ 1:27 AM
They still make you guys? |
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Svensta
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Date: August 19, 2002 @ 7:05 AM
I'll hold off on an argument about the US economy. Let's just say that if you are in America, on an American ISP, in an American city, you are BEYOND naive, if you "hope it all tanks and america goes bust" Fuck music, try finding some groceries if the economy goes up.
Anyways, I think Maffew is a bit unclear as to the general feeling. It's not about screwing the artist, it's about no longer worrying about 'them getting theirs' Let's face it, it's been a collaborative effort. The ONLY band I know that actually picks a fight with 'the Association' of ticket brokers, record labels, et al. is Pearl Jam. They disallow the screwing of their fans, and I am sure there are a few other bands like them.
That being said, WHY should we look out for the artist? What artist has spoken out on this issue FOR his/her fans? Point em out, Maffew. Otherwise, you are demonizing US, but instead perhaps we are just fighting fire with fire. They haven't complained a single time as the royalties poured in. Wait they ARE complaining. They DO see how much we are being ripped off. They just want MORE of the pie, that's all. Ohhh, that's fair.
Specially since 50% of the zero I pay for my music, is a nice fat zero.
Fix the price scheme, or die.
Artists, labels, everyone. Fix it or go away like the Edsel.
If ANYTHING is true, it's that we are musical people, and there will ALWAYS be music. |
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mtbatol
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Date: August 19, 2002 @ 12:34 PM
Ok Maffew, so downloading music is pirating. Even though I haven't made a business of burning various hip-hop songs (genre that's all too damn familiar with pirating) then I guess I'm a pirate due to me downloading any song that comes to mind for my own personal use. I download song after song and yet don't make a profit off of them and this may even affect my decision to buy the artist's album and yet I'm breaking the law?? Sorry fam, I don't get your logic of seizing and suing people even when they have content that's paid in full. While you're still sweeping the floors in RIAA headquarters tell Hilary Rosen I said "SHOVE IT!"
Thank You
m.t. "like I give a rat's ass" batol :) |
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ChillinBuzz
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Date: August 19, 2002 @ 12:37 PM
As long as there are people like US. ;)
Good always beats evil, no matter the cost.
It's just knowing where to draw the line, which we will not do until the rusty wheels of the monster machine, which the RIAA has become, cease to rotate.
I support some major artists, I listen to their music via p2p. It may be illegal but without it and some net radio airplay too I'd never have heard so much variety and wouldn't have bought half as many CDs as I've done in my lifetime.
p2p works in the right conditions. Those conditions do NOT include total control by one movement. That was never the Net's purpose and as long as people like hackers and file-sharers to show the world there's another way to things, it's purpose will never be manipulated fully. |
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ursacorwin
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Date: August 19, 2002 @ 1:58 PM
i've only got one thing to say to my fellow americans who are angry with the RIAA:
VOTE!
and i don't mean for that smirking boy king currently occupying the white house either, just take a look at how much money his campaign and party get from the RIAA, Sony, etc. it's ok for the big corporations to cook their books and for ken lay to walk with $500 million of his employee's pension money, but You GO TO JAIL
johnnie "i love Goebbles" Herr Ashcroft and the new undersecratary for Fatherland Defense have already said publicly that "cyberterrorism" is the number one priority in the developing Office of Spy on Your Neighbors, and believe me, they would love to throw all of us in jail for not handing over our hard earned cash to our corporate masters.
Wake up kids, it's 1933 and this is pre-war germany, and the draft is next. you're only noticing it because it's finally touching something that matters to you. |
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Maffew
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Date: August 19, 2002 @ 7:03 PM
"That being said, WHY should we look out for the artist? What artist has spoken out on this issue FOR his/her fans? Point em out, Maffew. Otherwise, you are demonizing US, but instead perhaps we are just fighting fire with fire. They haven't complained a single time as the royalties poured in. Wait they ARE complaining. They DO see how much we are being ripped off. They just want MORE of the pie, that's all. Ohhh, that's fair."
Why should we look out for the artist? Huh... let's see, you obviously value what they can do, cause you're taking your time to download it. In addition, when someone creates something, it's theirs, not yours to do with what you will... protection of property sounds like a reasonable request to me.
Fighting fire with fire? You think they're screwing you? CDs are like 15 bucks, what's the big deal? A lot of work goes into it. As for fighting with fire... I don't really see how violating copyright laws is that noble... I think it's just an excuse to steal, or more often to be a cheapskate.
"They want more of the pie. Like that's fair" .... yeah, what's wrong with trying to be successful again? why do you want to save the money you could be spending on cds? is it maybe to have more of the pie? Seems like it to me.
As for my comment about FBI siezing things... I was just trying to warn those of you that think you're invincable... you aren't. I don't say this cause I work for anyone or I'm trying to scare anybody... it's just that I was like what I think a lot of you are like -- downloading everything music, movies, software -- and it happened to me, one day it was all gone, even stuff I paid for. Sure I could go to court, but I'm not so rich and who wants to rile up the FBI? Its easier just to start over... It was just a helpful warning, not a threat or a scare.
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salieri
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Date: August 19, 2002 @ 8:06 PM
some years ago, b. gates put ibm against the ropes with very good arguments. wasn’t for that i could be writing this in a very expensive as50, aka 386 enhanced with 8mb of ram. steve balmer put piracy as a necessary evil for industry to develop (people will buy the software when they can afford it). Wasn’t for this smooth (r)evolution and things would be unacceptable for today’s standards.
with the freedom that technology gives to musicians (recording studios, event promotions, production), the owners of recording companies just wont let go. nowadays anyone with quality enough to win, can do it alone (or with the help of the friends they choose). the record companies know it. and the other pour people, in the wonderbitland do what they can to debug things. at least they identify the parasites.
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ChillinBuzz
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Date: August 19, 2002 @ 8:38 PM
Over the course of many years I have watched CD prices in this country rise way beyond the rate of inflation and yet I've noticed little difference in the overall quality of the product. When you also consider some artists are battling their labels for money owed to them and the piracy element only recently being used for the loss of sales and money (which would obviously result in prices going up if it were that much of a loss) then ask yourself: Why has this CD price doubled in such a relatively short space of time when the creators of the music on it are not getting paid properly.
Think where your hard-earned pay will be going when you buy that 'cheap' £20($32) CD with 32 page insert of credits and disclaimers in a few more years' time. Think where it's going now.
I dont support 'piracy' but file-sharing isnt in that category, at least not morally in the eyes of those who know both sides of the story. Most people still legitimately buy music, they now have the chance to hear it before deciding that the song they heard a 30 second clip of from a label's site is the only good song on the album and just saved themselves money. Customer choice. Period.
And yes I am being sarcastic. Apart from the customer choice bit. If we all had their attitude music would die. |
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Spwee
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Date: August 20, 2002 @ 6:45 AM
The only thing i can't wrap my head around Maffew is how a guy can go from rampantly downloading everything to SPOKESMAN for the riaa. I mean you sound like a fuckin awareness ad. I'm wondering precisely what you were up to when you were arrested and your stuff confiscated.
1) the first thing i object to is the fact that you insist music downloaders are not buying cds.
they are dipshit..so what does that make them...huh..tell me, criminals that get music for free but buy anyway? oh, wait..(you were reprogrammed) you'll say they are breaking the law cuz their listening to music that's copyrighted i guess - so what? who said laws are always right you moron, everyone knows the riaa don't care about fairplay or laws, they simply want to make you pay EVERY STEP OF THE WAY. So i'm a cheapskate you say: Wanna know what's on my computer - i got ten fuckin files
asshole
1) prodigy - diesel power (bought the album years ago) sold it
2) fine young cannibals - bought the single thank you, is age-old shit i'd never buy AGAIN YOU DIPSHIT! so what if i download it, half the shit i download is stuff i would NEVER BUY, but listen to on the radio
3) rock steady - hella good, maybe i should buy their single but i really can't afford it sorry, so i can get it from the net, sue me..i borrow it from someone who paid..the file will be deleted soon, but was that so criminal - oh i didn't go throught the legal CHANNELS, but who insists i do, certain evil music people that's who, they want my MONEY every step of the way, tenfold. If you ask me, sounds like a puppet show staring the consumer.
4) real genius - number one, legally obtained from a website
5) real genius - falling, legally obtained
6) sheryl crowe - soak up the sun, another one i should buy but can't, it hurts too cuz i LIKE to support the artists i enjoy, heard it though on MTV half a dozen times, i think that pays for a few listens
7) prodigy - baby's got a temper, brand spankin new single i think, KNOW WHAT ASSHOLE, I'M GOING TO BUY THE FUCKIN ALBUM (if there is a new one)cuz prodigy's still kickin it with that song!
8) u2 - the sweetest thing, never bought the single or album, but i've bought plenty of u2's music, and i've watched the video plenty of times, plus i've rented zooropa 3 or 4 times, i pay for hbo as well which aired their 'rattle and hum' tour, i'm sure they got some kind of fee for that airing
9) styx - best of times, i needed a boost
10) styx - come sail away, i needed a boost, it helped
So there I AM A PIECE OF SHIT CRIMINAL, so SORRY i LOVE music. LOCK ME UP cuz i bought a computer and a modem IBM shoved in my face and found music on the net that doesn't hassle me for a listen
Shit, don't we sing for our souls. Does Styx really want people to go to jail because they download their music for inspiration?
All in all i'd say the riaa has about $100,000 dollars of my money or more when you consider tv ads, radio ads, and cd/tape/record purchases
and what about 'FAIR USE RIGHTS' asshole..i happen to think it is completely fair to trade music that's ALREADY BEEN PURCHASED. So you don't 'what do i give a damn'. Studies show it simply boosts sales, you have to buy before you encode, and its free marketing as well.
Try making software or music?
YOUR ON A FUCKING MUSIC SITE YOU ASSHOLE!
that's what people do here, make music
btw, i have made music and i have attempted to make software..if i ever make something marketable i'll accept that fact that some cannnot afford to buy it and will download it for free, regardless of the media, will i protect it, yes, but if it was ripped off for some small business or personal use i could care less..i'll make my money elsewhere
business sold us this stuff remember, they equipped us to do this, technology has equipped us, made music more convenient to listen to,
what? am i supposed to go out of my way, buy batteries, turn on my portable radio station and listen
DOES THE WORLD REVOLVE AROUND THE RIAA or somethin
THAT' WHY I'M HERE??? THE AGE-OLD QUESTION???
to ALWAYS buy music???
Maffew you're cute really..you say they'll confiscate people's shit, wonderful, jews were massacred, the indians were made extinct, people are rotting in prisons for smoking pot, the politicians and the rich have ruined the world, and now they're going to take my computer away because i hear music
then you quote (and this is where i will destroy your puny logic):
Maffew: "Why should we look out for the artist? Huh... let's see, you obviously value what they can do, cause you're taking your time to download it. In addition, when someone creates something, it's theirs, not yours to do with what you will... protection of property sounds like a reasonable request to me."
property? its mine you asshole, i bought it
the singer said to me: listen i have a song to sing, i wish to heal the world with it, spread my music, spread my word, humanity must heal
then you punish me when i buy an album and share it
VALUE?
that's what people are doing when they FILESHARE DIPSHIT...they're valueing music,
FILESHARING IS A FORM OF VALUEING MUSIC
THE RIAA DOES NOT VALUE MUSIC AND DEMONSTRATES SO CONSTANTLY
WHAT DOES THE RIAA VALUE MOST?
music or money
MONEY! They'll sell out the world on behalf of those that value artist's work, who are willing to pay for it, share it, and market it for free.
Filesharer's ARE the ones buying the music. Where else would they get it..CHERRY TREES?
The artists are being compensated as we speak,
its the opposite way around WE VALUE MUSIC
THEY DON'T
yes there are cheapskates in the world..want something for nothin..i am one of them..its great to have something for nothing..most people enjoy giving back though, i know i do, and they don't NEED LAWS TO DO IT
its a free world with COSTLY music
next they will copyright the air you breathe and we'll will all be criminals |
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Maffew
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Date: August 20, 2002 @ 8:15 AM
You're right Spwee, everything you do is wonderful, you get to decide when you've paid your dues and when it's fine to steal.
Oh, that was a convincing argument too, call me names over and over again. It really obliterated my "puny logic." How did you ever do it? Could you teach me how to call someone an asshole and a moron? That was really effective in getting your message across, I'm starting to listen to your stance, oh, and there you go calling me another name.... real effective.
And I too think that you're cute... you've attempted to make software, that's so sweet. What'd you program tic tac toe in Pascal? Gimme a break, if you think you have any idea of what it takes to make commercial software just because you know a few lines of code you're sorely mistaken.
Then you present the unlikely case where you produce something someone would want to steal and you're so holy and wise that you're willing to accept that people would steal it. That is so kind of you, really, it is. Unfortunately, it doesn't make it right for people to steal other peoples creations. It doesn't make it right for them to justify stealing it cause they don't like it, cause they've bought lots of other stuff by the artist, for whatever other reasons you came up with.
I really never said that music downloaders didn't buy cds. I don't know where you got this. I did say that they quite obviously download SOME music instead of buying it. I know you'd like to obey the law when it's convienent for you Spwee... unfortunately that's not the way it works. For example, you can drive the speed limit your whole life and still get a ticket the first time you decide to go 80 on the highway. Of course I'm sure you think traffic laws are the RIAA holding you down.
Geez, I wasn't supporting the RIAA in anyway. I didn't refer to them once. I didn't say one word about liking what they did or even thinking it was right. My point was if you're stealing music, it is wrong.... if you don't see it that way, then give away your own music, fine... but don't steal other peoples music that haven't chosen to just give it away.
One more time, for Spwee. I'm not a supporter of anyone going into anyone elses home and destroying their lives. If anyone is against this, I am. It happened to me, genius, I know what's up.
Spwee, I'm not really sure why you're such the spokesperson for downloading music if you've only got 10 files.... dude, I wouldn't worry about it too much, no ones worried about people that have 10 files, it's the people that haven't bought music in the past 4 years cause they could get it online.
Quite obviously I'm not concerened with the people who download music to listen to it to see if they want to buy the CD. If anybody thinks that is what most of the downloading is, then I'd say they are seriously mistaken.
One more thing, just for Spwee. You said, "you're on a fucking music site, asshole" .... uh, Spwee, I know you linked here from the music site... but to some people, this is gnutellanews.com... I mean, I know it's directly connected to whatever music site you're on... but I just came here looking for some news and discussion. You're doing a lot for your cause. You're really making people understand. I commented on an article and I'm attacked with a barage of profanity and "yelling" Way to win friends and influence people, Spwee. I know it's easy to spew all of this on a board where you have almost 100% support... why is it I don't see your smiling face on the news, or even in any of these articles?
Once again, for anyone who didn't get it (Spwee)... I'm not supporting the RIAA in anything.
What I'm saying is, once you've put half as much effort into doing something as those that produce music, software, movies - and then you are willing to give it away.... you can speak up, you can tell other people that they sould give away their creations... but even then, it's still wrong to steal them. |
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Spwee
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Date: August 21, 2002 @ 12:47 AM
You argue like a child
Maffew: "You're right Spwee, everything you do is wonderful, you get to decide when you've paid your dues and when it's fine to steal."
Yes, exactly that's how it works. In reality, there are no laws save the ones we make up ourselves.
Maffew: "Oh, that was a convincing argument too, call me names over and over again. It really obliterated my "puny logic." How did you ever do it? Could you teach me how to call someone an asshole and a moron? That was really effective in getting your message across, I'm starting to listen to your stance, oh, and there you go calling me another name.... real effective."
Name calling does not denote a failure in my logic. You must READ between the cusswords.
Maffew: "And I too think that you're cute... you've attempted to make software, that's so sweet. What'd you program tic tac toe in Pascal? Gimme a break, if you think you have any idea of what it takes to make commercial software just because you know a few lines of code you're sorely mistaken.
The issue of file-sharing does not depend on whether or not i personally can make software.
Maffew: "Then you present the unlikely case where you produce something someone would want to steal and you're so holy and wise that you're willing to accept that people would steal it. That is so kind of you, really, it is."
why do you have to imagine me as talentless? and why must i be holy and wise to see the pointlessness in suing the masses for personal filesharing, how bout i'm intelligent
you came in here with the morally superior attitude, talkin bout we all sound pretty whiny and suggesting we are thieves when sharing digital music which can be compared to trading taped recordings from the past
Maffew: "unfortunately, it doesn't make it right for people to steal other peoples creations. It doesn't make it right for them to justify stealing it cause they don't like it, cause they've bought lots of other stuff by the artist, for whatever other reasons you came up with.
maybe digital media is disorderly because the riaa refuses to adapt, when they do its under their terms, they refuse to recognize the buyer's request for a newer better product that is current with technology, also: why are tapes fine to trade, but mp3s not, its because were living in an era where data is mass transfered,
Maffew: "I know you'd like to obey the law when it's convienent for you Spwee...unfortunately that's not the way it works. For example, you can drive the speed limit your whole life and still get a ticket the first time you decide to go 80 on the highway. Of course I'm sure you think traffic laws are the RIAA holding you down.
yes that's just what i was going to say next, traffic laws are the riaa holding me down..tell me, if filesharers are such thieves why don't all of them sell cds, moral consistency, they feel they own the mp3s and can share them
Maffew: "Geez, I wasn't supporting the RIAA in anyway. I didn't refer to them once. I didn't say one word about liking what they did or even thinking it was right. My point was if you're stealing music, it is wrong.... if you don't see it that way, then give away your own music, fine... but don't steal other peoples music that haven't chosen to just give it away.
sharing mp3s is not stealing, its convenient for THEM to say so isn't it, if it goes against copyright laws i disagree and will challenge it
Maffew: "One more time, for Spwee. I'm not a supporter of anyone going into anyone elses home and destroying their lives. If anyone is against this, I am. It happened to me, genius, I know what's up."
i never said you were a supporter, i said you sounded like one
Maffew: "Spwee, I'm not really sure why you're such the spokesperson for downloading music if you've only got 10 files.... dude, I wouldn't worry about it too much, no ones worried about people that have 10 files, it's the people that haven't bought music in the past 4 years cause they could get it online.
well i don't know that i'm such a spokesperson but i try because of my convictions..but are more files supposed to help me or something..what, a catalog of mp3s makes me official
Maffew: "One more thing, just for Spwee. You said, "you're on a fucking music site, asshole" .... uh, Spwee, I know you linked here from the music site... but to some people, this is gnutellanews.com... I mean, I know it's directly connected to whatever music site you're on... but I just came here looking for some news and discussion."
you know it would be smart to be aware of the kind of forum your posts are appearing on before you make such finger-pointing accusations toward a community..people have an agenda here..if you think you can waltz in and subvert it right now in this stage you're crazy (yes i use hasty bad language, so sorry, but you offend me with your own arrogance)
Maffew: "... why is it I don't see your smiling face on the news, or even in any of these articles?"
um..first you tell me i must write software, then complete a popular music album, and now i have to be a full-fledged journalist, all this to have an opinion?
Maffew: "Once again, for anyone who didn't get it (Spwee)... I'm not supporting the RIAA in anything."
i never said you did, but you happen to support a part of their philosophy, which isn't a crime
Maffew: "What I'm saying is, once you've put half as much effort into doing something as those that produce music, software, movies - and then you are willing to give it away.... you can speak up, you can tell other people that they sould give away their creations... but even then, it's still wrong to steal them."
you think its stealing, i think its fair-use
On an end note its sounds to me like the system screwed you over pretty bad and your lashing out at others for it |
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Maffew
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Date: August 21, 2002 @ 9:08 AM
Spwee, how do you see it as fair-use? If those who create the music/movies/software are choosing to copyright and distribute via conventional consumer means, why would you think it is okay for us to trade it freely amongst ourselves? What exactly defines fair-use?
Spwee: "sharing mp3s is not stealing, its convenient for THEM to say so isn't it, if it goes against copyright laws i disagree and will challenge it"
I think you're saying you know it is against the law; and because you disagree with the law you're challenging it by not obeying it. If that's how you see it, you think that's your best course of action... well, that's fine with me, I disagree on that point, but I think that's just a fundamental difference in attitude toward the law. I don't think you should disobey just because you think the law isn't right -- I think there are other avenues to explore. (obviously there would be exceptions to this, which you brought up earlier - nazi regime, etc.)
Spwee: "The issue of file-sharing does not depend on whether or not i personally can make software."
I understand that it doesn't depend on whether or not you can personally make software. If that's all you got out of what I was saying, I think you missed my point. I was saying that it is difficult for the average person to concive of what is required to produce commercial software. This being the case, it is sometimes difficult to understand why one must pay for it. However, those who do have some idea of what it takes to make a program (or a movie) have more of an appreciation for the effort that goes into it, thus they can understand why they must pay their dues to reap the benifits of someone elses creation.
Spwee: "On an end note its sounds to me like the system screwed you over pretty bad and your lashing out at others for it"
It's not that I'm lashing out at others for it, it's just I think I have a slightly unique perspective on it and I'm trying to voice that. If I came of as harsh or arrogent initally, it's because that is the nature of the forums... I mean, look at the posts, everyone is arrogant and harsh. Nevertheless, if I offended you by my first post, Spwee, I apologize. Please know that it was not my intention to offend, only to make a statement and discuss.
Again, I think our major conflict comes down to what you see as fair use. You said, "property? its mine you asshole, i bought it"
That's where I think I'd disagree. When you purchase software, you do not become the owner of the copyright. Rather, you are purchasing the right to use the software under certain restrictions imposed by the copyright owner, typically the software publisher. The precise rules are described in the documentation accompanying the software -- the license. It is imperative that you understand and adhere to these rules. Most often, they state that you have the right to load the software onto a single computer and make one backup copy. If you copy, distribute or install the software in ways that the license prohibits, whether you are swapping disks with friends and coworkers or participating in widespread duplication, you are violating federal copyright law. Even if you only help someone else make unauthorized copies, you are still liable under the copyright law.
Once again, if you disagree with this, okay. If you think the way to change it is through civil disobedience, okay. I disagree with you. |
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iH8RIAA
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Date: August 21, 2002 @ 9:47 AM
This ramant stupidity is like a spongebob episode - Krabs is the CopyRightIndustry, Spongebob is the stupid polititions, Squidward the P2P filesharers wary of Copyrighindustry/Krabs, and Patrick the dummy teen population that actually likes the *beep* that the copyright industry is serving up. In fact, this entire p2p war thingy is the episode Squid On Strike. Krabs is charging his employees fees for breathing, lollygagging, talking, even existing in this universe. Squid goes on strike with Sponge which doesnt wanna. Patrick and all the other people keep buying Krabby Patties (aka cd's dvd's software) no matter how hard they try to reveal how bad Krabs is, and eventually end up working for him until the universe collapses OR until patrick's black hole head sucks up squid and sponge. All this time Sponge is brainwashed by Krabs. |
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Spwee
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Date: August 21, 2002 @ 4:18 PM
Maffew, whether you like it or not, whether the INDUSTRY likes it or not,
WE'RE IN A NEW AGE OF TECHNOLOGY
MASS INFORMATION GETTING SMALLER, EASIER AND FASTER TO TRANSFER
the music industry does not have to die
it is simply time for CHANGE
ALTERNATIVES is what we WE ARE PUSHING FOR
WE ARE TIRED OF THE RIAA HOLDING TIME BACK
FORCING US TO GIVE IN TO THEIR SELLING SCHEMES
When the riaa finally gives in you will see that laws, including copyrights, for digital media
WILL CHANGE MY FRIEND
then it will not be STEALING as you love to point out time and again
new forms of SALE will be constructed, a whole new marketing scheme designed around the idea of filesharing
THE ARTIST WILL BE HAPPY AS SHIT, MAKING MORE MONEY PROBABLY
THE RIAA IF THEY CHOOSE TO ADAPT WILL BE HAPPY MAKING MORE MONEY
THE CONSUMER WILL BE HAPPY BECAUSE OF THE CONVENIENCE AND EASE OF FINDING AND PURCHASING MUSIC AT A LOW COST ONLINE THAT IS LEGAL TO FILESHARE, peer to peer may pay set royalty fees to artists (the money coming from ads on their system), in fact music may become totally sponsored, in which case it will be used for corporate advertising
we simply recognize that the riaa wish to make us all sheep, that they are willing to hold back time as long as they can despite the fair wishes of the consumer, and despite the fact the consumer can easily create those alternatives themselves given the advancements in hardware and online technology.
By the way, there are people in the world that make complicated software and distribute it as either freeware or shareware and make alot of money. There are artists like Madonna who did not publicly denounce filesharing and she works hard. Not all artists are against it. The Grateful Dead encouraged their fans to trade tapes of their concerts in the past. After mp3s became popular Grateful Dead allowed free downloads in MP3 format, as long as the file was not used for commercial gain.
And the fact that you use that argument in an independent music forum that by-in-large supports filesharing is off-the-charts rude and presumptious.
The riaa has arrogantly molded the industry to favor only them, restricting creativity, and shutting out the competition including many prospective artists just to make a few more millions. They also spit on the consumers that make them rich refusing customer satisfaction. They have attempted to stop free speech on some levels, to undermine advancements in hardware and technology, are trying to limit our choices with hardware and cd players and the with the playability of media. Everywhere else in the world convenience and the pushing of technology is becoming the norm. Yes other industries restrict as well, but none i know of are so terribly lagging as much as the music business right now.
Consider all this and you might see filesharing as an objectionable case.
It is up for each and every person to decide when the boundaries of dictatorship and appeasement are drawn. The riaa has gone too far plain and simple. Would people fileshare anyway if they were appeasing, yes! Why? Because it is a free, convenient, riskless, and morally arguable way of sharing music, one that has not shown to hurt the artist or the industry but actually supports it.
Copyright or no, we're living in a new age. The artist has yet to be hurt by filesharing, rather they've been supported. So what claims can you make that all this hard work is going down the drain...you can't. In 1999 music sales were up 11% not down (riaa survey). In the first quarter of 2000 music sales were up 8% over the previous year. It was shown that 45% of Napster users bought more music as a result of hearing the music first. 95% of Napster downloads were
erased in a short period of time (the equivalent of a free listen). The riaa also forces many outsiders from bringing forth new forms of music delivery by restricting membership guidelines. They are thwarting technology, the consumer wishes, privacy rights, a whole industry, and mistreating artists in the name of greed. They don't object to copyright infringement..they object to fairplay and not dominating the market.
1) filsharing increases sales (free form of marketing, you have no point about the artist struggling due to filesharing)--and consider how well the industry would do if new forms of distribution and compensation were met.
2) hard work is therefore not going down the drain, if so its because of the fascism of the industry--unwilling to meet consumer demands, yes they don't have to meet our demands, and we don't have to obey their restrictions, especially when WE have the moral upperhand.
3) copyrights on digital media really have not been fairly defined given their unique nature, easy distribution, and mass existence. Therefore your claim of COPYRIGHT or STEALING is illegitimate.
4) i have proven that civil disobedience is terribly justified--now your point about civil disobedience being the wrong avenue toward molding the industry has no credibility--you may still hold the opinion but you cannot say it is without justification for others, especially when filesharers show responsibility by buying music while the riaa show no responsibility
5) understanding the hard work of creativity is something many filesharers and unprofessionals DO understand fully, and yet they see filesharing as a part of the internet that will not go away and therefore must be adapted to rather than unrealistically stamped out
6) when you say "thus they can understand why they must pay their dues to reap the benifits of someone else's creation", i would like to say the consumer has dues as well owed to by the artists and industry that contiues to make them rich
there is nothing wrong with civil disobedience even on issues less stringent than nazi regimes--consider the lengths the riaa will go to pen in the world, the artist, and the consumer, and shows no sign of stopping
that's how order is made, from chaos, disagree if you must, copyright or no you will see OUR way is the one adopted by the industry (out of necessity) because WE ARE RIGHT, its unstoppable because of the age we're living in, not because people are simply cheapskates |
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Spwee
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Date: August 21, 2002 @ 5:00 PM
by the way, simply defining copyright laws does not show me why they are right in this case
the only legitimate point you make is that the riaa/artist deserves compensation for their work or product..imposing copyright laws on digital media simply isn't the solution, NOR IS IT FAIR
the choices are to live under a totalitarian industry which will eventually drive consumers away OR to adapt to the millenium
why you propose the first is beyond me
yes there are other means of change--and people are up to them. Writing laws to better suit the consumer for one, boycotting is also a good way to thwart a totalitarian establishment, and buying independent cds or second-hand music is another. But such methods are very difficult to initiate in a corrupt society that favors the rich. Large sums of money buys all the law. The public in general do not have such funds or simply wish to be left alone these days so its hard to rally support for such a cause.
Remember that everything you accused others of on this forum the music industry is guilty of tenfold. Let me get this right, WE PLAY BY THEIR RULES, THEY DON'T HAVE TO PLAY BY OURS. Is that it, Maffew. Continually the PUBLIC SHOWS MORE RESPONSIBILITY than the MUSIC INDUSTRY, even filesharers. So why should one obey the other when AN ENTIRE SYSTEM HAS NO REGARD AT ALL FOR THE PUBLIC.
THE BIGGEST CHEAPSKATES I'VE EVER SEEN ARE THE RIAA AND SUPPORTERS OF SLANTED COPYRIGHT LAW
Your contempt for filesharers can go where the sun don't shine. |
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ChillinBuzz
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Date: August 21, 2002 @ 5:09 PM
Wow, I bet Leflaw wishes some of the arguments in court were like this! Spwee would be bashing the judge in after 5 minutes! 8) |
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Maffew
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Date: August 21, 2002 @ 6:48 PM
Okay Spwee... I'm starting to get it.
Still, I have a question, seriously. If I was to return to my filesharing ways, and continue them as before, from this day forward you would say that I was morally justified? More specifically - buying a CD maybe once a year, renting a DVD on occasion, and rarely buying software...most of what I would ever need would be provided by sharing... all of that is justified? |
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salieri
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Date: August 21, 2002 @ 10:52 PM
>>Maffew
>>Date: August 20, 2002 @ 8:15 AM
>>…fine to steal.
>>… for people to steal…
>>… justify stealing…
>>I really never said that music downloaders didn't buy cds
>>I know you'd like to obey the law when it's convienent… >…if you're stealing music, it is wrong...
>>…but don't steal other peoples…
>>... I'm not supporting the RIAA in anything.
…
>>... but even then, it's still wrong to steal them.
!!!
Maffew!
You no what? You smell. Strong scent, much like political cheese.
Shepherd to shepherd: Are you lobbying with the family or engaged in a totally new quest for bacterial nuisance?
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Spwee
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Date: August 22, 2002 @ 2:53 AM
Well actually its about different industries inventing new forms of distribution in the face of duplicable media. Everyone agrees that remedies to online sharing must be met to some degree or such media may become unavailable.
Shareware was a marvelous conception when it first arrived, providing companies with an innovative way of getting users to preview and test new software. I'm sure the developers expected the software to be hacked, but whatever percent was stolen a good margin of sales could be expected, more likely from large-scale businesses (but home users as well).
Over time, distribution methods are slowly advancing. Alot more software for example is being offered as shareware with more enticing ways of getting the user to buy. More incomplete versions of shareware are being distributed to prevent cracking.
In the future large database access into corporate download systems may offer users the ability to buy software in bulk form at ultra-discount prices. Perhaps even more innovative coding into software can be used to disallow p2p transfer. Another form of advanced distribution (when data transfer excels off the charts) may be to sell software usable only online. Such content would be completely non-downloadable and unavailable in cd form. Hacking into expensive systems would be the only way to place such software on to hard drive. This mode of distribution would seriously deter theft and boost sales at the same time. Further protection capabilities may be implemented by forcing online software to become unoperable on personal computer systems. Accessible in packets (but fully integrated into one's browser) each packet will have its own access code, further dettering hackers. Browser errors and automatic ip censoring can be initiated by detection defense mechanisms. Such innovations will be continually updated barring hackers and ensuring sales.
Another remedy to loss of sales from duplicable media would be to make all public centralized peer-to-peer systems require a license and force them to track every transfer. The entire list of software and music transferred from the main server would be recorded. A list of every piece of professional software and music in existence would have a standard transfer fee assigned to it which peer networks would pay out to companies. The fee ofcourse for each transfer would be minimal, paid for by high-priced advertising. Monthly summations would figure the dues owed to registered companies assigned to peer systems, allowing compensation for legal distribution of all forms of media. Certain media may be designed uncopyable still or coding-wise made untransferrable. This would honor the companies right of protection. However all publicly marketed forms of media may remain tradable still by law. Either way companies are ensured their right of protection while gaining profits from both purchased or shared media. Meanwhile consumers maintain their right to fileshare.
Which brings me to the answer to your question. Why is trading replicable media a 'fair use right' of the consumer and morally justifiable despite current law?
Because the markets themselves are putting such capabilities in our hands. They are arming us to do so. Combine that with the idea that large data transfers will eventually be achieved in microseconds its utterly stupid to think the public will conciously avoid sharing its own resources. In other words if you build and sell little machines that churn out 100 dollar bills you cannot justifiably expect the public to use it exclusively for play. Also the government and markets must recognize computerized media for what it is..a bunch of ones and zeros easily rewritten. Yes marketing software and music can be expensive, but distributing media such as photoshop at prices as high as $1000 dollars can be construed as unfair business, regardless of the usability of such media. Enabling the public to reproduce such media for free, then price gouging it at the same time is a sure way to provoke users into absent-buying. Besides personally backing up one's computer, also consider that little else IS WORTH BEING COPIED, BACKED UP, or even SHARED. People tend to always keep the original store-bought cds so backing them up is basically unnecessary. Also backing up one's hardrive on multiple cds is rather unorganized which makes backing things up on minimal-storage cds kind of pointless. It is therefore expected of the public taught to rave over highly advertised media to put such expensive hardware to use by replicating and trading popular software and music.
Finally consider the notion that software distribution on the net, legal or otherwise is part of the main reason people pay isp fees. On the whole the legal purchase or theft of media supports the very industries distributing the media by drawing in spectators to the net and allowing industries to make their sell-points to prospective buyers.
The hardcore truth is that the abundancy of accessible data in the world is ever-rising. In a democratic society it is morally unfair to reserve the remarkable convenience of technology to technology-makers alone. People live for themselves. It is somewhat inhuman and unnatural to stretch our morals so far as to feel sharing media is wrong when society itself accepts and provides the very capability.
IT THEN BECOMES RATHER INCONVENIENT FOR THE CONSUMER TO RATIONALIZE WHY SHARING MEDIA IS SO WRONG...ALSO FILES ARE LIKE VEGETABLES MEANING YOU CAN COPY FROM THE SOURCE..it is therefore perfectly natural for one to see duplicating copyrighted material as his/her right when nature has equipped him to do so. Remember we're talkin about ones and zeros as freely duplicable as air itself. Taking advantage of such convenience becomes a personally defined act, not as clear-cut as one might rationalize murder.
However if you need one INTRINSIC reason why filesharing copyrighted media is wholly justfiable it is this:
IT IS A TECHNOLOGICALLY CONSISTENT ACT
..technologically it is rather inconsistent not to. If people can its a good reason to do so.
IT IS ALSO TOO MORALLY ARGUABLE..you might say it sits on a moral fence.
Lastly the strongest reason why filesharing is morally justifiable..FILES BELONG TO PEOPLE not INDUSTRIES. |
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Spwee
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Date: August 22, 2002 @ 3:28 AM
In defense of Maffew..
he has iterated a simple willingness to debate on this issue..and has arrived at his convictions based on experience
His main point that an artist's work deserves compensation equal to its amount of distribution is a fair one. I think all of us would agree that sales can possibly lag from peer-to-peer, although by-in-large it appears filesharing supports most media. Regardless i think most conscientious filesharers feel digital media remains property of our own and therefore open to sharing. The filesharers i have seen tend to be respectful of the music industry and truly wish to support their favorite artist or band by purchasing their music. Many download old songs, previously purchased or not, but alot simply love the notion of perusing undiscovered music, adopting new tastes and attitudes toward different genres.
Yes, i definitely agree that when you get right down to it Maffew, its hard to rationalize getting a free song without paying for it...stealing is the first thing that comes to mind. It took awhile before i felt convicted as a filesharer. Yes sometimes it feels convenient to argue the right to fileshare, but continually i am faced with the enticing convenience of accessing media for free, with the feeling that my files are mine and shareable (as long as i do not sell them), with data that shows filesharing supports the increased sale of media, and with the notion that with responsibility filesharing and free enterprise can exist harmoniously.
May god bless us all, just kidding. |
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JimsMyName
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Date: August 22, 2002 @ 1:41 PM
P2P is wrong. It's piracy and that is stealing. No matter how much you want to deny it. |
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Spwee
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Date: August 22, 2002 @ 3:23 PM
i love how all you can say is
its piracy
its stealing
its wrong
explain why it is wrong brainless
files belong to us, not the artist, not the riaa, and purchased media once duplicated retains a 'fair use' right to be shared
you have no case jimsmyname, all you can site is a copyright law, which has been written solely for the record producers and artists, not the consumer
the lack of argument on your side jimsmyname astounds me |
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Spwee
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Date: August 22, 2002 @ 3:28 PM
HERE..i will play you
filesharing is STEALING!
it goes against copyright law
you're a bunch of freeloaders
the artists is being ripped off
hey, maybe if you say it enough it will sound like an argument |
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Spwee
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Date: August 22, 2002 @ 3:32 PM
how is it piracy again
cuz it goes against copyright laws
therefore it is stealing
hey, it goes against my 'fair use' right as a consumer..now what? |
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Spwee
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Date: August 22, 2002 @ 3:44 PM
and jimsmyname got eerily quiet |
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Spwee
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Date: August 22, 2002 @ 4:42 PM
God jimsmyname, you ARE the king of lame rhetoric
i looked at your comments section
18 times on various threads you posted the exact same response:
"P2P is wrong. It's piracy and that is stealing. No matter how much you want to deny it."
and nothing else
jeez, when i said that's all you can say on the issue
BOY WAS I RIGHT!
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Spwee
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Date: August 22, 2002 @ 4:46 PM
from now on:
JIMSMYCOCK |
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debart
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Date: August 22, 2002 @ 9:53 PM
Petula Clark Wrote.. Date: August 13, 2002 @ 7:23 PM
Yes, this is NOT the time to quit. Change your logon name, back-up your files, change your ISP, make it difficult for the Justice Department to track you down - but don't stop sharing files!
I'm going to stop buying new CD's.
EXCELLENT!
Now Petula, tell this one to the RIAA, they have a feedback page on their website. Let them know that their policies are costing them customers and you just stopped buying their product. Besides, used CD's are cheaper, and the labels don't get profits if you buy used.
Deb. |
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Spwee
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Date: August 24, 2002 @ 2:15 AM
right on
people will NEVER stop file sharing |
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salieri
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Date: August 24, 2002 @ 9:00 PM
New days will see editors offering cd's for promoting concerts. (where the big bucks are). and believe me, people will never let go a good concert when they like the artist, as they don't buy recorded soccer games. They spent fortunes and travel all around the world for their personal amusement. it's all just a matter of focus. |
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NeoFlash
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Date: September 1, 2002 @ 1:31 PM
RIAA cannot stop us, if I have to, I will learn Visual Basic fully, not just the basics of it, and make a gnutella client that uses the p2p2p technology Spica has suggested if he is not done with it yet, and I will continue to help people find filesharing supporting isps, get through firewalls, and every problem. I'll start buying cds if I have to so I can put more on the network, I already have over 400 files and broadband, TRY AND STOP ME!!! I'll go from AOL to Verizon, to covad to linkline to megapath to earthlink to msn, you'll never be able to shut the same person down at all of these isps!!!!!! Don't be afraid, the biggest challenge for broadband people will be sending the modem back unless you own it. |
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