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U.S. Department of Justice to prosecute p2p
Posted by leflaw on August 20, 2002 at 7:50 PM   (printer friendly)

http://news.com.com/2100-1023-954591.html?tag=fd_top

By Declan McCullagh
Staff Writer, CNET News.com
August 20, 2002, 2:27 PM PT


ASPEN, Colo.--The U.S. Department of Justice is prepared to begin prosecuting peer-to-peer pirates, a top government official said on Tuesday.

John Malcolm, a deputy assistant attorney general, said Americans should realize that swapping illicit copies of music and movies is a criminal offense that can result in lengthy prison terms.

"A lot of people think these activities are legal, and they think they ought to be legal," Malcolm told an audience at the Progress and Freedom Foundation’s annual technology and politics summit.

Malcolm said the Internet has become "the world's largest copy machine" and that criminal prosecutions of copyright offenders are now necessary to preserve the viability of America's content industries. "There does have to be some kind of a public message that stealing is stealing is stealing," said Malcolm, who oversees the arm of the Justice Department that prosecutes copyright and computer crime cases.

In an interview, Malcolm would not say when prosecutions would begin. The response to the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks temporarily diverted the department's resources and prevented its attorneys from focusing on this earlier, he said.

A few weeks ago, some of the most senior members of Congress pressured the Justice Department to invoke a little-known law, the No Electronic Theft (NET) Act, against peer-to-peer users who swap files without permission.

Under the NET Act, signed by President Clinton in 1997, it is a federal crime to share copies of copyrighted products such as software, movies or music with anyone, even friends or family members, if the value of the work exceeds $1,000. Violations are punishable by one year in prison, or if the value tops $2,500, "not more than five years" in prison.

Cary Sherman, president of the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA), said his industry would "welcome" prosecutions that send a message to song-swappers.

"Some prosecutions that make that clear could be very helpful...I think they would think twice if they thought there was a risk of criminal prosecution," said Sherman, who was on the same conference panel.

Christopher Cookson, executive vice president of Warner Bros. and another panelist, said there was "a need for governments to step in and maintain order in society."

Swapping files in violation of the law has always been a civil offense, and the RIAA and the Motion Picture Association of America (MPAA) have the option of suing individual infringers and seeking damages.

But, Malcolm said, criminal prosecutions can be much more effective in intimidating file-swappers who have little assets at risk in a civil suit. "Civil remedies are not adequate...Law enforcement in that regard does have several advantages," Malcolm said. "We have the advantage, when appropriate, of opening up and conducting multi-jurisdictional and international investigations.

"Most parents would be horrified if they walked into a child's room and found 100 stolen CDs...However, these same parents think nothing of having their children spend time online downloading hundreds of songs without paying a dime."

Gary Shapiro, president of the Consumer Electronics Association, said he was skeptical about the view that peer-to-peer piracy should be a criminal offense. "If we have 70 million people in the United States who are breaking the law, we have a big issue."

The DOJ already has used the NET Act to imprison noncommercial software pirates, which software lobbyists hailed as "an important component of the overall effort to prevent software theft."

During his confirmation hearing in June 2001, Attorney General John Ashcroft told Congress that "given the fact that much of America's strength in the world economy is a result of our being the developer and promoter of most of the valuable software, we cannot allow the assets that are held electronically to be pirated or infringed. And so we will make a priority of cybercrime issues."

The letter from Congress complains of "a staggering increase in the amount of intellectual property pirated over the Internet through peer-to-peer systems." Signed by 19 members of Congress, including Sen. Joseph Biden, D-Del., Rep. James Sensenbrenner, R-Wis., and Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Ca., the letter urged Ashcroft "to prosecute individuals who intentionally allow mass copying from their computer over peer-to-peer networks."


User Comments (These do not necessarily reflect the beliefs of this site)

pog  
Date: August 20, 2002 @ 8:14 PM
Well, I guess it was bound to happen. If you can't stop the p2p software being distributed, someones gonna try making examples of unlucky users as a form of revinue raiser. Amazing, corperate, how much can we make ppl hate us mantality...

pog  
Date: August 20, 2002 @ 8:15 PM
errm... mentality... :blush:

Mediamaster  
Date: August 20, 2002 @ 8:35 PM
hhhhhmmmmmm?

s**t

Hail Mp3!!

Mediamaster  
Date: August 20, 2002 @ 8:39 PM
Sorry, just a little mad. There are a little points to the descision I don't get. What about fair use. Don't people have a right to download a song they already have? Plus, legaly don't I have to open the file before it becomes criminal? What about people off shore?
Will there still be enough to keep p2p alive?

Mediamaster  
Date: August 20, 2002 @ 8:43 PM
The war has begun. Even if the RIAA shuts down p2p I still believe they will lose. I hope new technology can help combat this. The EFF is our frontline and the consumers behind them.

Remember Napster!!!!!

mp3manlou  
Date: August 20, 2002 @ 8:49 PM
well, its official. any old idiot can be elected for congress. by signing that, you have proved you are an idiot. this may be the end to p2p as we know it. a few people will be arrested, and we will have no people on gnutella anymore. it makes me sad to think about it, and mad to know that we have people like this running our country.

thumbtack  
Date: August 20, 2002 @ 8:58 PM
The entertainment industry contributed more than $38 million to federal candidates and parties in 1999-2000, a $20 million increase over its giving in the 1996 election cycle.(source Opensecrets.org)

See the story here on DMusic http://news.dmusic.com/article/5243 about how much money these 19 Congress Critters received from Hollyweird and the RIAA.

forrix  
Date: August 20, 2002 @ 9:33 PM
bah, humbug.
i have faith that the new technologies i read about (can't remember the official names or terms - the ones that transfer your signal from server to server to server anonymously) will make it prohibitively expensive for them to track down users. true, most users aren't using that now, but a move like this will only speed its emergence.

debart  
Date: August 20, 2002 @ 9:41 PM
Well, it just means that people on p2p networks will have to share smaller amounts of files, and rotate the items in their shared folders on an irregular basis. As is stated in the above paragraph...

Under the NET Act, signed by President Clinton in 1997, it is a federal crime to share copies of copyrighted products such as software, movies or music with anyone, even friends or family members, if the value of the work exceeds $1,000. Violations are punishable by one year in prison, or if the value tops $2,500, "not more than five years" in prison.

Yeah, it's called 'grand theft' and at that point, it's felonious.

$1000 dollars is an awful lot of songs (the average CD has what maybe, 13 songs on it, divided by a 16 dollar pricetag. What's the math on that?) or software.

Deb.

pressf8  
Date: August 20, 2002 @ 9:58 PM
does anyone share a singular piece of content worth $1000? The way I read that, all your songs are worth way less than $1K, so you should be under the line. Maybe if you transferred 100 CDs to a single person in a short amount of time--but a song to several people? Probably not $1000 worth...

Jprime  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 6:25 AM
Everyone knew it was bound to happen but I feel sorry for the people who will be held as an example by being charged. I live in Canada so I could be charged as well. They can't charge us all so lets see how long it takes before they get tired out. I thought it was only illegal if you made a profit off the coppies. I don't think it is illegal if you give a free copy to a 1000 friends.

Jprime  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 6:39 AM
If you download software and movies like me then you should just burn them to cd's more often. If you are caught just reformat you hard drive all the files will be gone but then they would have no proof.

Svensta  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 6:53 AM
Government needs to step in... heheh, that's not going to happen very easily, millions in lobbying or no. I hate that they are pushing all these laws through, but I have 5 good sturdy pre-DCMA and TC...(I dunno the acronym, Trusted Computing something-or-other) machines so I will be set for another 5-6 years. I will be back on IRC and FTP in no time should it come to that. There seems to be a new groundswell of newsgroup users too, yaaaaay. We did this before p2p and will continue. If it comes to that, I will start teaching teens how to use IRC. They are the target market after all.

BTW, JPrime, you need a data eraser to write zeros to the disk to avoid data retrieval legally speaking. You reformat and they seize yoru drives, they will get the files off it ANYWAY, easy as pie. Find free ones on download.com It takes about 15 minutes a gig on an average machine but it's WORTH it, as it's COMPLETELY erased.

iH8RIAA  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 9:10 AM
Tee Hee Hee... i have a secret weapon used on IRC channels for a long LONG time... THE INTERNET PRIVACY LAWS! They cant arrest me because any info retrived from a personal computer is considered private data that cannot be used in court. So, datasniffers whom attempt to find people to arrest and jail cannot do such without any evidence, and evidence gained thru a private computer is considered to be unusable in court! Tee hee hee!

Spica  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 9:15 AM
let's get some weapons and waste the whole fucking Justice Department. They can't do anything right these days.
come on, i'll supply the liquified Chlorine gas.

Big250  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 9:25 AM
How exactly are they going to track down individual users to make examples of?

NeoFlash  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 10:49 AM
one way that might hinder them knowing how much its worth is if shareaza and winmx and kazaa and grokster took these stupid ass "browse user's files" options out, which is just helping. hopefully the riaa runs out of bribe money and than congress will get its head out of its ass and get a tank to shoot all riaa buildings.

spikester  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 11:00 AM
another fine example of how the american goverment is ruining the internet. of all the real crime the US has, but they have to go after file sharing instead. i feel sorry for the US citizens that they have fools running the country that can be bought so easily, yet theres so much murder and violent crimes. so many 'innocent' people are already thrown in jail over drugs, and now its going to be peer 2 peer users. people that wouldnt harm anyone. quite sad really that the US has beecome the United Corperations of America...

Spica  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 11:16 AM
my heart fills with great shame for our government.
these are not the people i want to represent me.
furthermore, i think the situation inthis country warrants an armed revolution.
if only the majority of us werent such cowards and would be willing to put their lives ont he line for freedom of speech and information exchange.

"Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave" - yeah right, LIKE HELL
dammit, thats the country where people fucking FOUGHT and fucking DIED for some dumb 2-cent tax on tea!!!

NeoFlash  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 11:31 AM
that was at the time when people thought that this country would be good, but it slowly turned bad. first slavery and prejudice, than idiots in office, than the riaa.

NeoFlash  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 11:32 AM
but still, what is the alternative to america? most other countries dont even have computers. and if they do, they must be 486s tops.

hrrglburf  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 11:40 AM
Ha! Good, its about time they did this. We all know the truth, and the truth we don't like, we may download songs we have on cd, but that doesn't stop us from getting others, so don't even say that B.S. You all know it is a pirates heaven. You will all make stupid excuses, and look up invalid facts and instantly believe them because you want to. The fact that p2p is being attacked is because everyone is pirateering, I have NEVER, EVER, heard of a good hearted soul using P2P JUST for the songs they have ALREADY PURCHASED. If you wanted those so bad you could just rip your CD and you know it, not download it. I'm happy for them. And I'm sorry if you pirates can't get your digital porn, free ebooks, or cracked software anymore. Learn to face the reality of the situation. Seriously people, we're all theifs, but just because we all are doesn't make it the right thing to do. Good Luck US Dep. of Justice!

Spica  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 11:42 AM
hrrglburf, you work for the RIAA, and you are a retard who will never be of any use to humanity.

hrrglburf  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 11:46 AM
Great commentary, very mature. I like the insult. Grow up, how old are you? 13? You should know better. The last thing we need is idiots like you running this country. Yes everyone! make it legal to pirate! ruin software companies, ruin music carreers! But who cares, because we all believe in free work. Because developers and singers should get paid nothing for what they do! Go free America. YEAH RIGHT! wake up and smell the coffee. Dumbass.

Spica  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 11:48 AM
developers and singers should be paid for the time they are physically developing/singing.
their software/music in itself is neither a product nor a service.
you fucking Republican brainless retard.

Spica  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 11:49 AM
and yeah, i dont care what the fall of recording and software companies will do to the economy and tax revenues.

i am willing to cut back on my consumtion for a while.

Spica  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 11:52 AM
we will come after people like you, and your families, with good old steel and lead.
let's see how your fat ass will defend itself when 70 million people are doing everything they can to erase you from existence.

smelv1n  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 11:54 AM
my friend just showed me the wonderful world of newsgroups yesterday, so fast and so free.

i get a free subscription with my cable provider, so i just log in and download away! Got madden 2003 in less than an hour, but my brother is taking his computer away so i won't even bother unzipping it :(

mp3manlou  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 11:58 AM
hrrglburf, youre rite. pirating is wrong. but that is if you dont own the rights to do it. if i paid 3-5 $ for the cd, i wouldnt have those rights. but when i pay 15$ for a cd with 1-3 good songs, i have the rite to copy it. something thata expensive gives mee the rite to copy it. and until a cd is 5$ or less, i will never buy a cd. the riaa has screwed us out of money by promoting these talentless artists and making us buy 15$ crap. and there are only a few good songs on it. good. i hope the riaa loses money and dies! and i am 13 you piece of shit riaa spy!!! look at the thread macs rule, i think i said everything there more maturely than you ever will. and spica is in college, so please, shutup, noone wants an asshole from the rampid idiots association of america on this website anyway.

hrrglburf  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 11:59 AM
In fact, why don't you go working at your job in burger king for free? that would be good. Fucking teenagers, you think you all know how the world works. I give up on you. Brainless shit. I feel sorry for your poor self. What are you going to do? Hack my computer? I bet your a script kiddie to. Ha... silly silly boy.

hrrglburf  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 12:05 PM
mp3manlou, you are correct entirely. You have a perfect right to buy the CD and make yourself copies, I don't blame you for that. At All. Its when you start giving away those songs for free when they should be purchased, is when it becomes wrong. Same with software.

mp3manlou  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 12:07 PM
Hey, riaa spy asshole: I'm not like other teenagers: other teens are moronic and are spoiled idiots. I have a 160 iq, and intend to use it. I am not the average teenager. If I need to, I'll show something that proves that congress didn't ever agree with the RIAA.

Spica  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 12:08 PM

(a) iam not a teenager
(b) i am a professional engineer
(c) i do not think breaking your computer would accomplish much, since computers are actually useful to mankind, more useful than you.

Spica  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 12:09 PM
(d) and hrrglburf, i certainly don't care if Britney Spears or similar human garbage suddenly quit their music career when they stop getting paid.

mp3manlou  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 12:10 PM
And it is a crime if if I give the pirated works away for personal gain or profit: not for free. Nothing ever said about for free. I would explain it here, but read the first post of my thread at:

http://www.gnutella.com/forums/general/651

hrrglburf  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 12:11 PM
I would say they are going about this in the wrong way, but you have to ask, what else would they do? The RIAA has tried suing all of the P2P companies but they keep springing up. They have to do something. If you work at a small business software company you would really see the effects of piracy, and that is what's annoying. Piracy does ruin lives, believe it or not, because when those business end, people lose jobs, and when people lose jobs, people don't get money, and when people don't get money... well you know.

mp3manlou  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 12:12 PM
i for one hope that britney spears stops. being a user of gnutella, i know the "OTHER" things she does for money except music, and thats why people like her.

mp3manlou  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 12:14 PM
but thats the point!!! the riaa should go out of business, jobs should be lost!!!! they are rich!!! all they do is take the music we love and overprice it!! zdnet said that they will try to put copyright chips in computers!!!! they are trying to stop vcrs, damn it!!! they are rich, it doesnt matter if they lose a little money!

Spica  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 12:16 PM
hrrglburf, you disgusting fuck, you are just repeating all the shit from the RIAA website!

Any teenager working for BurgerKing has done more for our species than any given musician or actor! It's disgusting useless fucks like you that consume our planetary resources by pushing this stupid noise fro real money!
Your moral level is below that of a Colombian drug traffiker!

Spica  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 12:18 PM
and yes, all the people who are making money from music CD sales SHOULD lose their jobs!
they can go and work at the BurgerKing, for all I care.

macwhee  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 12:50 PM
Hos got to eat, too...
What I resent is the carrion feeders in the industry who do nothing for a living and make 98% of the money. I refuse to line their pockets. I have purchased 75-80 percent of what I have digitized, but will buy no more forever.BOYCOTT!
Hell, you can still pull stuff from the Radio if everything else goes south...hmm of course they will want to start charging for that eventually...ie the satellite Radio deal.
Wonder where it will end? does the rapaciousness know no bounds? stay Tuned!

HrrIsAcow  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 1:18 PM
The World is doomed, because of peoples like hrrglburf. He wants to fart in 2002, and still be paid in 3044

hrrglburf  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 1:32 PM
You people are useless and weak minded. I will not check this site again. It is impossible to deal with stupid mindless fucks. You who think that stealing is okay. I'll do my best to support the US Justice Dep. in this movement. Have fun kiddies! You want more money, get a better job, go get one? You can't? oh I'm sorry. Let us all get paid the same, let us all be communists! Fucking retards, all of you. Enjoy it while it lasts cause it won't last long. Toodles!

Spica  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 1:45 PM
good thing the RIAA retard is finally gone. phew. :)
nobody here said we all should be paid the same; all that was said here is that certain (most) people in the music industry should be paid NOTHING.
there will still be food, clothes, cars, computers and airplans, as before.
there will just be no more 20-dollar-CDs.
And no fat bitches named Hilary Rosen.

mp3manlou  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 1:48 PM
and the world would be happy.

crawdd  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 2:28 PM
The best way to stop this, and I hate to say this, is to vote bush the hell out of the white house. When he goes, these DoJ morons will go with him, and hopefully we'll get a saner attorney general. John Asscroft is a menace, and we need to get rid of him ASAP.

ChillinBuzz  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 2:33 PM
Just remember which came first: The unacceptable price rise or the pirating issue????

Fighting fire with fire. When no-one listens we fight for what we believe in. Yes, many of us are 'pirates' in some people's eyes. And you change their minds. The stubborn pre-digital era of thinking will always be there with some of them.

Now we are criminals according to you then, hrrglburf. You don't consider what your chummy record label friends do is actually moral itself? Then you must have more money than sense.

crawdd  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 2:35 PM
Someone needs to write a secure gnutella client that won't let anyone see a list of all files you have. If anyone who programs a client reads this, I'd highly recommend putting that as a feature in your next version, I assure you that many people would flock to your service if you did.

Maffew  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 2:37 PM
Spica: "Any teenager working for BurgerKing has done more for our species than any given musician or actor!"

Yet you fight so hard to be able to download the work of these musicians and actors. If you don't value what they do, why do you download their music?

mp3manlou: "but thats the point!!! the riaa should go out of business, jobs should be lost!!!! they are rich!!! all they do is take the music we love and overprice it!! zdnet said that they will try to put copyright chips in computers!!!! they are trying to stop vcrs, damn it!!! they are rich, it doesnt matter if they lose a little money!"

I believe hrrglburf's point was not that you're going to put the RIAA out of buisness, but that you are going to put the small time software developers out of buisness. That's been my experience, it doesn't hurt the rich people who are making music/movies/software nearly as much as it hurts those who are trying to get their foot in the door.

mp3manlou: "...but when i pay 15$ for a cd with 1-3 good songs, i have the rite to copy it."

Well, this gets into a discussion of fair-use. Maybe you see it that way, but in the eyes of the law you don't have that right. When you purchase software, you do not become the owner of the copyright. Rather, you are purchasing the right to use the software under certain restrictions imposed by the copyright owner, typically the software publisher. The precise rules are described in the documentation accompanying the software -- the license. It is imperative that you understand and adhere to these rules. Most often, they state that you have the right to load the software onto a single computer and make one backup copy. If you copy, distribute or install the software in ways that the license prohibits, whether you are swapping disks with friends and coworkers or participating in widespread duplication, you are violating federal copyright law. Even if you only help someone else make unauthorized copies, you are still liable under the copyright law.

And once again, as I've told Spwee in other forums, if you think this is wrong, fine... if you think breaking the law is the way to go about changing it, fine... I disagree.

On a side note: there are many sofware programs that are valued at greater than $1000... 3d Studio Max (not that hard to get a hold of) for one... and there are many that are in the realm of hundreds of dollars.


NeoFlash  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 2:46 PM
how the hell does gnutella hurt software developers. thats bs. and spica works so hard to keep gnutella afloat so other people can download music and that will destroy the riaa. once the riaa is destroyed, all of the artists that depend on them die. and i use gnutella mostly for movies and sitcoms. and crawdd, i said the same fucking thing you said in the 17th post on this thread, so get your own ideas!!!

NeoFlash  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 2:52 PM
neo=the ideas and computer savviness and thoughts to bring p2p back to a legal state and kill the riaa. flash= the ability to come up with these ideas quickly and put them into words and actions. neo+flash= THE ULTIMATE PERSON TO BRING P2P UP AND THE RIAA DOWN!!!

Spica  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 2:56 PM
note: hrrglburf and Maffew are likely the same moron.

Maffew: why i download them? Because they are FREE, MAN!!
and these things need to remain free, so that the RIAA and MPAA keep bleeding money.

also, just because i LIKE something, doesn't mean i can't wish to DESTROY it.

keep this in mind, next time you post any of this "...then why do you..."-bullshit.

and turns out, the best software is FREE;
free like Linux,
free like Winamp,
free like IrfanView,
...
free like Gnucleus and Shareaza

how you like them bananas, dumb RIAA minion?

Maffew  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 3:02 PM
NeoFlash:"how the hell does gnutella hurt software developers?"

Well, when fewer and fewer people pay for their software and they have no money coming in... it kinda makes it difficult to continue. You deprive them of their intellectual property. In addition you by not rewarding them for work done, it stifles future creativity.

"In 2000, the United States suffered a staggering 118,000 job losses, $5.6 billion in lost wages and $1.6 billion in lost tax revenue due to pirated software." - BSA

(I know that is not all Gnutella.)

Gnutella itself doesn't hurt software developers, it's the misuse of Gnutella.

Maffew  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 3:05 PM
Spica:"note: hrrglburf and Maffew are likely the same moron."

Uh... not so much, Spica... you'd probably like to think that there are only a few of us out there, but you're wrong. It would have be intuitively obvious to the most casual observer that we are not the same person. I rarely choose to cuss or insult as hrrglburf (or the rest of you for that matter). I am more interested in getting what I have to say out there and trying to learn and expand on it through everyone elses opinion.

Maffew  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 3:11 PM
Spica:"and turns out, the best software is FREE;
free like Linux,
free like Winamp,
free like IrfanView,
...
free like Gnucleus and Shareaza"

This is true, there are very good free software programs out there. However, there are a lot of really good programs that do not have free counter parts:

Adobe Photoshop,
3d Studio MAX,
Pro/E,
...goes on and on.

I don't see how some programs being free means all programs should be... that is the choice of the creator, it's his/her intellectual property.

Maffew  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 3:13 PM
Spica:"also, just because i LIKE something, doesn't mean i can't wish to DESTROY it."

Why do you want to destroy something you like?

crawdd  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 3:19 PM
skywalker1774: I hope you realize that no one at all is going to do your scheme there.

Maffew  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 3:23 PM
Oh, and now we know who the real dumbass is... thank you skywalker1774

mp3manlou  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 3:35 PM
oh my god!!! not this too!!! jeez, look at the war threads, it conjests even my dsl!!!

mp3manlou  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 3:35 PM
spam......too..strong.must........ignore!!!

NeoFlash  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 5:09 PM
ok spica, we get the idea. its my turn now!

Mediamaster  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 7:22 PM
Amen to that Spica!

Mp3 lives on!!

Hail Mp3!!!

Jprime  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 8:01 PM
The average amount of songs went from 18 to 10 and the prices went up. Why pay $15 for the CD when the artists get nothing. As for software the best is free like Opera or Linux. If there is reasonably priced software I'll buy it but to pay over $100 is way to much. If software was reasonable priced people would buy it. As for Maffew and hrrglburf no one is going to change there minds because of your stupid treads. So just go away to RIAA pawns and go bug someone else.

NeoFlash  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 8:29 PM
cool, the website filtered out skywalker's spam!!!

captainclorox  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 9:17 PM
My troll detector's going off, but maybe Maffew and the other guy really do believe that breaking the law (whether it's really a violation or not), isn't the way to go about changing something.

Rosa Parks broke the law back in 1955 when she refused to give up her bus seat to a white guy, and a lot of people today would agree that the change which came about from that act of civil disobedience was positive. We music lovers do not care for the arrogance and stupidity of the RIAA/MPAA and we refuse to let them treat us as criminals for discovering new music in our own way. We break the law and don't think twice about it when we discover good new music without having to buy an $18 CD. Passing laws and initiating lawsuits to keep a defunct business model afloat for another few months won't work very well in the long run. As for depriving the artists, let me assure you that the RIAA deprives the artists more than a million fans downloading a new song ever could.

You argue that swapping the works of creators stifles future creativity by not rewarding the work done. Guess what? I'd rather get my foot in the door by letting everyone freely download the music I create and choose whether or not they wish to support my music with money. If not, fine. If so, cool! Someone who sees a Tricia Conception album in a store isn't likely to try it out if they've never heard of her, but if they hear an MP3 they downloaded for free and like it, the chances of her making a sale is a helluva lot greater.

Go ahead and believe that P2P is bad for the industry. They said the same thing about cassette tapes and VCRs.

shoshidge  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 9:28 PM
So, if a guy has an unpopular opinion around here he's a republican, a retard, in bed with the RIAA or worse...
Hmmm. I know we're all venting here and that most of us are arrogant punks who have yet to appreciate the art of objective thinking and mature debate, but I'd like to point a few things out.
Just because something benefits you personally doesn't make it right, understanding that concept seperates the grown-ups from the snivelling teenagers.
As much as you might dissagree with Bush and Republicans, they have nothing to do with this, if Nader himself was president the RIAA would still be following the same misguided path.
And Spica, on behalf of musicians and artists everywhere who might take offence to your assertion that we are worth less than a burger flipper at Burger King, here is a humble curse...

May your shit come alive and kiss you on the lips.

You probably were just trying to be provocative, as appreciation for the arts is one of the things that seperate the intelligent from the truly stupid.
Burger King is the living example of the sort of corporation that we should all hate and those that work there should be looked upon with sympathy.
True art is the antithesis of the corporate mentality, if it wasn't for art, there would be no culture and we would be living in a depressing, grey world.
So ignore the curse if your true opinions differ.

shoshidge  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 9:36 PM
Please don't let your hatred of the RIAA contaminate your respect for good musicians, most of them consider a record contract to be a necessary evil and would love it if someone came up with a better way for them to distribute their music.
As for the not-so-good musicians...

NeoFlash  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 9:59 PM
i agree with shoshidge all the way

SinfulPro  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 10:22 PM
Malcolm said the Internet has become "the world's largest copy machine" and that criminal prosecutions of copyright offenders are now necessary to preserve the viability of America's content industries. "There does have to be some kind of a public message that stealing is stealing is stealing,"


I can and should be able to take a picture of the Washington monument and take it home even though it's not mine, even print that picture or post it any where I like, home or Internet. I can copy a page of a book and it's not criminal, or record a part of a song from anywhere, being a movie or CD and make a WAV file of it, a cassette or a video of music, (like i can't make a cassette from a vinyl, please)

We have the freedom to use what ever technology we have in our homes and just about do what we like with it, I can listen to a radio commercial and record it, loop it and re use it on a hit song, has samplers killed off the musicians and their instruments like it was once thought? Shiet, even the best drum machine can't replace a drummer.

"the largest copy machine", too bad it don't print out 100 dollar bills!!!!

I still ask, why isn't the music industry putting out their music libraries on the net using their own mp3 files, make them mono or something that would make them imperfect, maybe a few audio "hiccups" or audio "pops" here and there, that will make the incentive to go out and buy the CD because you really like that song and artist.

the solution is to fight fire with fire, simply make the music available to the Internet users as easy at it is with peer too peer, leave their computers alone, and the music profits will be coming to the copyright holders, though i tell you something, there will still be that "bootleg" industry, it always has and always will, you just can't stop the criminal from making them and selling them in mass quantities, but legislation don't have to send people to jail for listening to an mp3 file on their car stereo on a routine traffic stop.

Legislation needs to protect the freaking people for once, make a freaking stand t this companies, GOD! They are ready to follow their command once again.

I mean, the legislation is so against the people man, it's simply ridiculous, they are ready to send people to jail instead of making this corporate CROOKS with their license to steal, rob and rape, to leave the Internet alone, and if they are so worried; why can they figure out a way to make it work?

This is because of the people they have running the riaa and other agencies, this people are of older age and completely a part from technology, progressive and fee thinking. I can't wait till this "baby boomers" retire already so the world can be free of it's myths, wars, laws and let downs. they can make room to the new generation, after all, as many of these dumb fucks as there is, we need to start figuring a way to get us out of this mess they got the world, the economy and how to support them and our self's in the future.

Some people just can't make the right choice and when they make a choice, they become bad decision makers too, and the legislative branch of our democracy will be manipulated and raped over and over again by the mighty dollar and it's vote purchasing power, "gotta have money to buy them votes" ;)

so the quote: "There does have to be some kind of a public message that stealing is stealing is stealing,"

Why don't you ask your self that. But I say the negligence of the music industry to put the music on the Internet by them self's is their own fault and should not become my fault and most definitely not my crime.

Isomer  
Date: August 21, 2002 @ 10:43 PM
Lots of interesting arguments here. I'm glad I missed the spam.

Here's why I use/have used p2p programs.

I download software, and music. Most of the music that I have right now is either so old that the artist is dead (and thus not getting paid for it anyway), or the music is techno, which until very recently was unavailable through any other means (except going to raves, something I'm not that interested in.) As to the softwre it falls into one of 2 groups, either it's M$ crap that I MUST use (but cant afford) or it's a game which if i like I go out and buy, if i don't I get rid of it and good ridance.

If it was a financial possibility I'd get rid of all the M$ software that has ever touched my computers, and switch to all open source. I believe that Microsoft has long used deplorable marketing stratagies. And I am the victim of one of those. I have a "WinModem" and use dialup for internet access, because of M$ practices, acceptable drivers cannot be generated for Linux for my modem. As to why I download (and thus pirate, yes I will use the word, because I know that it is illegal) the software, that is very simple. The legal stuff costs TOO MUCH! I am UNWILLING to pay $200 (and better) for a buggy, shitty, program which just a marginal improvement over the last releae in the family. With the definate possibility that not all the identified bugs will be fixed. Why would i want to give my hard earned money to a person (Bill Gates, since god knows that the programmers at M$ don't get paid enough, he has so much money), who could buy my entire LIFE and not even notice the moneys gone?

I am perfectly accepting of paying people for their work, believe me I am. If there's a musician at a concert or something, and I like them, and they don't have a big name record label, I'll pay them for their CD, 'cause I know the oney is going to them.

Musicians need to realise the potential of the Internet. And so do programmers.

crawdd  
Date: August 22, 2002 @ 4:29 AM
And for the record, I still think they're just gonna go after software pirates (as opposed to music.) opposing warez has been a goal of this misguided administration since before 9/11.

hrrglburf  
Date: August 22, 2002 @ 8:39 AM
You want understanding? Read all of this>>

It's still stealing. Stealing is wrong. If you can't pay for that unhealthy looking candybar, you can't have it. But you can, perhaps, stick it in your pocket and get away with it without getting caught. But why? WHY? Would you want the unhealthy candybar so badly you need to steal it? Hmm? If it looks so nasty why?
The fact is: when so many people steal software instead of buying it, businesses lose money. I'm not talking about those big corporate giants out there that you all hate, I'm talking about all those companies you think are so great and rich, that you think it is for some reason OK to steal from. Businesses like JASC, Macromedia, Alienware, NeoWorx, Vital, TechExcel... the list goes on and on. All of them are not as big and rich as you may like to think (possibly to ease your conscience?). It is mean, and cruel to steal their software. They put hard work and money into these projects and then 80% of the population decides to take it for free right under their noses. All those developers and small-medium sized businesses, who are real people just trying to make some money like me or you, are getting ripped off. This is unfair. And it erks me a little whenever I see someone talking about it. And no matter how right you think it is. It's not. Yes there are other ways to go about it. But just taking a product because you can't pay for it is wrong. I'm sure everyones good parents told them that "even though someone does something wrong, doesn't mean it's ok for you do the same". That goes for You All vs Big Bad Corporates as well.
I think P2P is a great revolutionary idea, but we have to look at the facts, that businesses (maybe not those huge ones, well, yes even those) are losing revenue, and a lot of it is from piracy (or you could say the invention of P2P). Piracy has grown extensively with the invention of P2P. If you are a developer looking to make some money, you'll know as much as I do you spend a good part of the time trying to figure out a way to make your software harder and harder to be cracked or copied. Why would we want to make it easy? Certainly not so the population can give it away or illegally copy it easier. Try and think of this from our point of view. If you guys find a way for us to earn revenue from stolen copies (of software that is so buggy and bad, but you want anyway) by means of P2P, that is just fine. Like I said, we are all out there looking to make some money. Some of us choose sports, some choose foods, some choose business, we are all different. But ripping off one another is not good.
Everyone including other businesses frown on bad business practices. If you feel you are getting ripped off, there is more than one way to complain, which are all totally legal. By fighting "fire with fire" you are only making the battle longer, because as we all know, fire doesn't kill fire.

I urge you, if you are open minded, just put yourselves in the shoes of developers and business people, and see what would you do?

Spica  
Date: August 22, 2002 @ 9:11 AM
first of all, a candybar, no matter how unhealthy, is still a tangible good.
Music and sofware are neither Goods nor are they Services. They are like sunlight, once they exist, they can be freely used by all.

hrrglburf, I know from personal experience what it is like to be a software developer, and as a qualified person and programmer, I am telling you that software does not cost as much as it is being sold for.
I support p2p all the way, for it will help to destroy parasitic industries, like entertainment and big software companies. i am willing to sacrifice those few "small" software businesses.


I see you RIAA bitch have consulted your psych and PR advisers before you returned.
Well, you will not find any more support here now than you did before.
The only people who are really hurt by p2p are RIAA and MPAA. they are parasitic, useless industries that usually even find ways not to pay taxes formt heir hypersized profit margins.

limeflame878  
Date: August 22, 2002 @ 9:18 AM
This episode can be compared to an act of banning tobacco and alcohal. If the U.S. Goverment was to do so, what would happen? Well plentiful riots would break out as our country turned 100's of millions of people into crazed lunitics bent on getting their smokes back! They would go absolutely crazy! They'd be turning everyone into criminals who smoked and drank. Stupid idea? Yes. Thats why we don't have 90% of America rotting in prison at this time.

So when you look at it this way, the RIAA is trying to turn the great citizens of America into criminals because they enjoy music and are boosting there own sales! So what makes these guys think that THIS time its ok to dismiss 90% of America as criminals? I'm also very sure that they would not have the time to prosecute millions of people. Let alone trying to fit them all in the U.S. jail system. Good Luck! Massive riots would break out in this situation too so what you've got to ask yourself is 'Do I want to spend the rest of my years in prison because I like music?' then you have to envision America: dead empty and see why we didn't ban alcohal and tobacco and see why we shouldn't ban p2p.

hrrglburf  
Date: August 22, 2002 @ 9:18 AM
I'm sorry you think that way Spica. I hope the rest of you will realize the reality of the situation.

Spica  
Date: August 22, 2002 @ 9:27 AM
yes, the rest of us realize the "reality of the situation", as you can see.
that is why we are preparing for some physical action against the RIAA members and their families.

hrrglburf  
Date: August 22, 2002 @ 9:29 AM
wow, now you're talking. Lets start killing and harming people physically! Becuase we are anarchy! Wow... are the rest of you reading this? This guy's quite insane.

hrrglburf  
Date: August 22, 2002 @ 9:31 AM
Obviously there is no reason with those who wish to harm human beings. There is always a rational way to fight things, and those that choose to use violence are those that lack the intelligence to do it correctly.

Spica  
Date: August 22, 2002 @ 9:33 AM
oh i do not lack the intelligence; neither do i lack experience with industrial chemistry, or electronics, or firearms, or tracing-services ;)

Spica  
Date: August 22, 2002 @ 9:34 AM
and no, i am deeply opposed to harming people. I only want to harm RIAA members, to take them out of the gene pool.

hrrglburf  
Date: August 22, 2002 @ 9:36 AM
Oh I see, not only are you a bio-chemist-anarchist-hacker-fiend, you're also a killer. I see, it's all starting to make sense: The arguing, the hope for legalized stealing, all of it... My poor poor child... Do you need a hug?

Spica  
Date: August 22, 2002 @ 9:37 AM
(oh yeah, btw, my connection is being relayed through my friends' TCP proxies in 4 different universities.)

Spica  
Date: August 22, 2002 @ 9:39 AM
well, i always enjoy a good hug :)

and copying is not stealing.

If i could "copy" a Porshe for free, i would have 20 Porsche's now

hrrglburf  
Date: August 22, 2002 @ 9:41 AM
Ever heard of copyrights? I guess not, they protect people's ideas. Have you ever heard of an idea? Have you ever had a great idea then had it taken from you and given out freely by someone else even though you had plans to make a little money off of it? Maybe not, but it doesn't usually make you happy. That's why these laws exist.

Spica  
Date: August 22, 2002 @ 9:43 AM
"ideas" lead to Penicillin, airplanes, spacecraft, computers, lasers and automobiles.

Music and Movies do not lead to anything but a brief psychological attraction.

Spica  
Date: August 22, 2002 @ 9:44 AM
...a psychological attraction, kind of like crack cocaine, which i am sure you RIAA executives are more than familiar with.

Spica  
Date: August 22, 2002 @ 9:48 AM
and if you read the definition of copyright at the US Copyright Office website, it says clearly that Copyright does NOT protect "Ideas".

hrrglburf  
Date: August 22, 2002 @ 9:53 AM
ahh, but a new car affects your psychology? It's like a whore, you pay for it's pleasure.

hrrglburf  
Date: August 22, 2002 @ 9:54 AM
you must be hella paranoid to think I am a RIAA exec. Wow... Your the kind of person I feel sorry for when I walk down the street.

Spica  
Date: August 22, 2002 @ 9:55 AM
A car is a product that provides me with quick and reliable transportation.

A whore provides me with a service and is usually paid by the hour.

And I will neither deny nor confirm any experience with whores.

hrrglburf  
Date: August 22, 2002 @ 9:55 AM
and your right I guess, but music and movies are not ideas either, they are a production. Just like anything that comes off an assembly line.

Spica  
Date: August 22, 2002 @ 9:57 AM
Well, if you are not a person in charge then I am sure you are at least in the position to relay my arguments to your boss (preferably when he/she is not high).

Spica  
Date: August 22, 2002 @ 9:59 AM
Well, if movies and music are production, then goodbye RIAA, for I am my own "Recording Industry" now, since I can take a CD and make an unlimited number of copies of it, for less than 50 cents per unit.

hrrglburf  
Date: August 22, 2002 @ 10:01 AM
for now maybe, that is why they are implementing all this ridiculous copy protection and trying to jail the common theif.

Spica  
Date: August 22, 2002 @ 10:02 AM
a common thief? please, I do not steal anything. All I do is make copies of an existing product.

Spica  
Date: August 22, 2002 @ 10:05 AM
and as for your copy protections: any music that can be heard, can also be recorded and copied through a device of my choice, even if it has to go through an D/A/D conversion.



NeoFlash  
Date: August 22, 2002 @ 11:39 AM
Ok, the RIAA says that the "creative" works of artists are being pirated. How much creativity did it take for eminem to make the song "ken kaniff" on the album the marshall mathers lp??? As I recall, the man ken kaniff is gay and is getting his dick sucked in the song, and you hear slurpy sounds.

In fat joe's "whats luv" song, he says about how he wants to screw more than 1 girl at once, and the girl is saying "its about us, its about just me".

In the song "one step closer" by linkin park, for about 30 seconds, in a loop you hear "SHUTUP!! SHUTUP WHEN IM TALKIN TO YOU" over and over again.

In britney spears' "im a slave for you" britney spears sounds like shes gettin screwed in the background, like a dog in heat for the entire song.

In the song "square dance" by eminem you hear "so wont you please jump off my dick, lay off, and stay off?".

In the song "drips" by eminem, you hear "all.. of these diseases, streaming from obie's penis" and "all these bitches on my dick"

tell me how that is creative??? maybe people will buy music when they make songs that sound good, like jimmie eats world, the middle, where he relies on his words and his music, not his being perverted, screaming for no good reason, sounding like youre a dog in heat, and so on. songs like linkin park points of authority were good.

maybe then people will buy music, but until good music comes out, screw buyin it. the reason people download it is because noone knows wheather they will get good stuff or the crap listed above.

NeoFlash  
Date: August 22, 2002 @ 1:25 PM
who let the spawn of skyalker into these threads????

crawdd  
Date: August 22, 2002 @ 1:30 PM
If somneone actually gets proscecuted for this, i say we start a fund to get him th ebest lawyers out there. lets see the giov't try and beat johnny cochrin etc. :P

goldenpi  
Date: August 22, 2002 @ 1:55 PM
The government is corporate friendly. It will be at least until we kick bush out, and probebly a long time after that. Corporate money, corporate taxes, corporate campaign contributions.

Spica  
Date: August 22, 2002 @ 2:18 PM
JimsMyName is with RIAA.
He and the retard hrrglburf are also likely the same moron.

shoshidge  
Date: August 22, 2002 @ 3:25 PM
Neo, just because there is some insipid crap out there marketed as music it doesn't mean you should tar every band or musician with the same brush. Yes, pop music is crap, most of it anyway, but that isn't the only music being made. And the good stuff will be just as affected, for better or worse,as the crap, maybe more so.
Do you really think that people download music because its crappy? I don't know about you, but I only download good music, I leave the Eminem and such to guys like Spica to jerk off to.
If the collective quality of pop music improved, there is no reason to believe that less people would download it.
CD sales would go up though.

NeoFlash  
Date: August 22, 2002 @ 4:37 PM
shoshidge, when i got after the riaa, you will be my first target.

shoshidge  
Date: August 22, 2002 @ 5:12 PM
huh?

NeoFlash  
Date: August 22, 2002 @ 6:16 PM
you will die when i get my hands on you. simple enough???

debart  
Date: August 22, 2002 @ 9:41 PM

For hrrglburf, who's obviously an industry shill..

Think the RIAA and the labels are a bunch of innocent victims? Har! They have been outright fucking over talent for decades, from the black jazz and blues musicians in the 30's and 40's to the young bands that sign their rights away today.

The bulk of the artists who make the mistake of going into business with the whoremongers that run the labels get mothballed in favor of the MTV commercial pop-cheeze acts that represent only 5% of the total number of signed artists.

Wrong or right is irrelevant.

At this stage it is the hand of JUSTICE and REVENGE that is embodied in the GNU network.

Take a look at this site.

http://www.negativland.com/intprop.html

Read any of the articles on that page, they are all good and educational. The best however is at the bottom. Read the essay titled 'The Problem With Music' - by record producer Steve Albini.

After reading this, do you feel sorry for the RIAA and it's bloodsucking money whores? I certainly don't.

Theivery my ass. Filesharing is karma.

Deb.




spikester  
Date: August 22, 2002 @ 9:55 PM
what a fucking joke, now theres RIAA assholes stirring up shit here... and i totally agree with you Spica!

NeoFlash  
Date: August 22, 2002 @ 10:12 PM
I want every RIAA guy to take a look at my stance.....than after reading it, shove your overpriced noise cds you call creativity up your ass!!!

shoshidge  
Date: August 22, 2002 @ 10:31 PM
Neo, what on earth did I say to piss you off?
I thought you were one of the reasonable ones, but you're threatening me? I didn't even disagree with you much, did you and Spica get raped by the same step-father or something? where is all of this rage coming from Jeezis!
Although I agree with Debart entirely, I have to speak in defence of hrrglburf.
His points were considerable when considering the impact of file sharing on software development, not so much with music though.
We all oppose the RIAA. Are you that choked and psychotic that you would turn your anger towards me? Who is generally on your side? Fuck you guys.
It wouldn't be a happy day for me if my file sharing abilities were taken away, but the way you guys are over-reacting its like a toddler having a massive tantrum because you threatened to take his toys away.
We've all smugly established that whatever the RIAA does, file sharing won't stop, even if we have to go back to the stone age when you borrowed music from the library and copied it at home. The primary issue is one of convenience.
You spoiled little whiners have no idea what it means to have your freedom oppressed, I'm truly offended on behalf of people out there who live in true, justifiable, fear of their government.
And Neo, please enlighten me, what opinion have I expressed in this forum that warrants such vile rhetoric from you.

NeoFlash  
Date: August 22, 2002 @ 10:46 PM
I thought you were against us...sorry, I get carried away when I think that someone may make me pay 15$ to get the 1 song that I like on the cd. Unless the software on gnutella being shared was something free from www,fileplanet.com or a free demo of something, it is wrong. Music should be shared though.

NeoFlash  
Date: August 22, 2002 @ 10:47 PM
The return of skywalker has really given me a bad temper.

Spica  
Date: August 23, 2002 @ 1:12 AM
SHOSHIDGE, i believe Neo got upset, because you unintentionally insulted Eminem, while all you really wanted to do is insult me.
see, Neo likes Eminem, but i do not, that's all. I have never had any Eminem mp3's on my PC.

I am sorry if i made you so painfully aware of the lack of purpose behind your music.
See, when people like me and artists were able to coexist peacefully, i had no objections.
However, lately, some great evil is being brought upon my species in the name of artists, by people like the RIAA; and frankly, i feel like professional artists are beginning to waste MY oxygen.

So I believe there are some things to be said.

What purpose exactly does music have that is worth fighting for, including prosecuting and jailing people?

Music does not replace food.
Music does not cure illnesses.
Music does not get us from point A to point B.
Music does not protect us from nuclear attack.

...What does, you ask?

People like me.
People, who are happy to live out their lives in the "depressing, grey world" that you and many others are SO AFRAID OF.
People, who evolved well beyond the point where music was still essential to life.

My "depressing, grey world" is a world filled with microchips, transistors, n-dimensional integrals, Fourier transforms, infinite sets, vector fields and other isomorphisms;
and to me, this world is much more beautiful and entertaining than any music I ever heard or any movie I ever saw.

And yes, it is still my opinion that the RIAA draws its destructive power from people like you, who keep making concessions, trying to compromise where a compromise is no longer possible.
Yes, part of me still remembers the joys of 10-20 years ago when I still listened to songs and watched movies; yet I am quite willing to make some necessary sacrifices to slay an Evil as great as the entertainment industry, more specifically RIAA and MPAA.

While I am not going to explain all of my reasons, since they are more complicated than they seem, suffice it to say that commercialized entertainment industries have become way too counterproductive, and they deserve to be destroyed quickly and painfullly.
The recent behavior of the **AA legal personnel warrants even more extreme punishment: complete physical, social, and genetic Obliteration.

I hope that after the "dust settles", people like you can go back to creating things that bring you happiness, and people like me can go back to providing people like you with computers, plastics, cellphones, alloys, internet, microphones, cars, pencils, keyboards and other things that 98% of humans so often take for granted.


Spica  
Date: August 23, 2002 @ 1:15 AM
i.e. fuck RIAA.
:D

goldenpi  
Date: August 23, 2002 @ 1:59 AM
Music downloading probably does cost the RIAA a bit, but nowhere near as much as they claim. I dont know how they calculate losses due to piracy, but I suspect they just estimate how many songs are downloaded and multiply by the cost of a CD :-)

Leaveing assive the issue of lost sales for now, the RIAA is a buch of morons. If they want to stop people pirateing all they have to do is finally switch to DVD audio. Af