DeathMonkey108	Subject: Microsft's Palladium chip Date: November 30, 2003 @ 9:12 PM Over the last year I have been researching the CBDTPA(Cable Broadband and Digital Television Promotion Act, I did bother to memorize it and what it stood for)and the hardware copywrite systems that have been proposed under this bill. The single most decisive and most threatening is the Microsft Palladium (henceforth known as macrosuck's fritz chip). And yes, im ranting now. The idea behind the fritz chip is to stop all download of MP3's and burning of cd's not authorized by Macrosucks. The chips enforces a set of hardware-encoding algorithms that prevents the installation of unauthorized software, wich means that software companies are forced to put thousands of lines of more code into a program just to install it. And to top THAT sector off, you can't create your own programs without sending the code to a Macrosucks lab to be tested to see if it is malicious code or not. This, i think, is the same thing as communism. Anything you do on your computer MUST be verified by Macrosucks first. If you want to create a text file and start writing a novel, you have to send it to Macrosucks to be authorized by a computer. If you want to burn a cd, you have to send confirmation to macrosucks to make sure you arent burning mp3's or other copywrite material. And here is where the music industry comes in.... The making and burning of MIRCOSOFT'S DEVELOPED mp3 ENCODING TECHNOLOGY..... If you try to create MP3's by ripping a cd, the files are deleted automatically. If you are lucky enuff to code a program that will rip under their operating system that you MUST have to even boot your computer with this chip. Now about that operating system... Codenamed Windows "LONGHORN" (can you guess why??[hint, YOU GOT F***ed]) it has extra features to add on to the Fritz chip. Sending emails and forwarding them to people is impossible. The email has an ecoded file header that gives a name of whoever the email is supposed to be viewed by, thus preventing you from forwarding it because the email would delete itself automatically when it is sent to someone who's name wasnt encoded into the email to begin with. Sending files is forbidden too. Because this would be the same as a person-to-person file sharing. And you are not allowed to make copies of file to different locations on your computer.. In short if you wanted to move an MP3 from Folder A to Folder B, it would delete both copies. And if it "legally obtained" in their words, you would have to pay for it again and download it again. See where this is goin? Big Brother of computer technology.(thats a controversial book for those of you who don't know, you should go buy it, its very good) See? MICROSOFT is the Fasciast Regime of industry and corprate schemes of the 20/21st century. They MUST control the O/S market, only recently have they been moving into new territory with pre-built computers, hand-helds, and the newest "notepad" computers. They helped the RIAA push the CBDTPA through congress and look what they are doing with it. The ANTI-trust case against macrosucks came too late to repair the damage they've done. The RIAA is behind microsft as well, encouraging this chip and waiting for it. The only option is Macintosh... or the ultimate.. LINUX/UNIX. Linux has been the only competitor to macrosucks in the PC operating system market. They have fought and fought to get their foothold in this market and have succeeded. Their foot is in the door and with a little more force they could push it open. The FRITZ chip is the push they need. The more people switch to Linux, the less money microsoft has, it will be a long war, but to fight the fasciast regime that has taken over technological imporovements is a fight worth fighting. Linux will take a while to get a little more popular, but once it becomes mainstream, macrosucks will be near put out of business, and the more people stop using them, the faster they will go under, the fritz chip will have to be sold to a contender who can hold the patent, and if ANY Linux distrobution company gets their hands on it... We're all saved >8D thanks for listening to my rant. L8ter
StephenHinkle	Subject: Re: Microsft's Palladium chip Date: November 30, 2003 @ 9:12 PM I spoke to a tech at Microsoft, and they even admit that Palladium WILL be cracked!
furrball316	Subject: Re: Microsft's Palladium chip Date: November 30, 2003 @ 9:12 PM Whether they admit it or not, it's still a load of shit to even release it on us. And for that matter, if they admit that they know it will be cracked then why are they wasting everybody's time with it instead of putting time and money into advances the consumer actually wants?
goldenpi	Subject: Re: Microsft's Palladium chip Date: November 30, 2003 @ 9:12 PM Deathmonkey, althrough you seem to have the right idea your technical accuracy is pathetic. You seem to have no idea what palladium is supposed to do, althrough it is certinly something undesireable, and even managed to get CDTBPA wrong immediatly before bosting that you had memorised it. I suggest you try serious research before making any more posts on the subject.
goldenpi	Subject: Re: Microsft's Palladium chip Date: November 30, 2003 @ 9:12 PM And just to clarify, the palladium hardware componant will be similar to the intel TCPA system. Its purpose is tamperproofing and authentication. Tamperproofing to stop unauthorised people such as the owner from changeing things they arn't supposed to see, and authtication to ensure secure files can only be opened on authorised systems, either ones authorised by the files producer or ones which have payed for the nessicary license to view the file depending on its usage.
DeathMonkey108	Subject: Re: Microsft's Palladium chip Date: November 30, 2003 @ 9:12 PM goldenpi, the TCPA is a corporate alliance between many of the hardware and software companies... not a chip that Intel came up with. if YOU actually did some research, you would have known that like the back of you hand
linusaurus	Subject: Re: Microsft's Palladium chip Date: November 30, 2003 @ 9:12 PM My first post: I also am strongly disturbed by Palladium. Under it, M$ and the RIAA will really be able to enforce copyright however they want, legal or not. Their power will be unchecked. We must fight against this. M$ already reserves the right to update peoples computers at will if they run either XP or WMP9. They also reserve the right to delete MP3s from remote. DeathMonkey108, I'd like to thank you for your efforts to inform people about this. However, I must say that, I find that some parts of your post are exaggerated, or inaccurate. As Palladium is a mechanism which offers customers nothing, and gives big business unchecked control, there is no need to exaggerate. The facts alone are enough to drive people away. Exaggerating will only cause us to lose credibility.
goldenpi	Subject: Re: Microsft's Palladium chip Date: November 30, 2003 @ 9:12 PM www.goldenpi.no-ip.org - you wanted research? The site is entirely my own work. OK, there are some minor technical inaccuracys but im working very hard to repair them. TCPA is a corporate alliance, but its headed by intel. They do most of the technical bit. The other corporations just help it achieve dominance. I hade read the TCPA specs. They seem to stop where the OS starts. TCPA checks the system hasn't been tampered with during pre-os boot, checks the bios is valid, noone has been changeing keys. Then hands control to the OS, and palladium takes things from there. The "TCPA system" refered to the secure hardware and bios which impliment the TCPA standard.
emek311	Subject: Re: Microsft's Palladium chip Date: November 30, 2003 @ 9:12 PM What is happening is that Intel is developing a chip that, along with a fritz chip, will check to makesure that all hardware on the system is approved by intel and it also checks to make sure that the operating system is aproved...what this leads to is that if you have a system with the fritz chip operating systems like linux wont work on your computer. This is Microsofts way of eliminating open source programs, something they have been yerning to do for years. Once the fritz chip approves your system then palladium takes over.
emek311	Subject: Re: Microsft's Palladium chip Date: November 30, 2003 @ 9:12 PM here is a good site with the good and the bad of tcpa and palladium http://216.239.35.120/translate_c?hl=en&u=http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/us">http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/users/rja14/tcpa-faq.html">http://216.239.35.120/translate_c?hl=en&u=http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/us ers/rja14/tcpa-faq.html
goldenpi	Subject: Re: Microsft's Palladium chip Date: November 30, 2003 @ 9:12 PM TCPA and the fritz chip on their own cannot kill linux. The OEMs can configure it to, but would need motivation. Such as a threat or contract from microsoft. We are doomed
linusaurus	Subject: Re: Microsft's Palladium chip Date: November 30, 2003 @ 9:12 PM If Senator 'Fritz' Hollings' bill, Consumer Broadband and Digital Television Promotion Act (CBDTPA) would make all non-TCPA compliant Linux distros illegal. HP is already developing a TCPA compliant Linux version. It would look like Linux, but as Ross Anderson said, the GPL could be circumvented, and eventually, the whole OS could be perverted to only run 'trusted' software. Best to search for employment outside the USA. They won't kill Linux in China, Peru, or any of the other countrys adopting it.
goldenpi	Subject: Re: Microsft's Palladium chip Date: November 30, 2003 @ 9:12 PM The CDTBPA is unlikely to pass. Its not impossible of course, nothing is impossible in politics, but its very unlikely.
emek311	Subject: Re: Microsft's Palladium chip Date: November 30, 2003 @ 9:12 PM does anyone know when the CBDTPA is up for a final vote in congress?
goldenpi	Subject: Re: Microsft's Palladium chip Date: November 30, 2003 @ 9:12 PM It wont make much of a difference for the pirates. The only people to suffer would be open source programers and small electronics companys or hobbyists. Quite simply, there is a contingency plan if it doesn't pass . The CPSA system. Run a few searches. It will achieve the aims of the CDTBPA without any changes to the law.
emek311	Subject: Re: Microsft's Palladium chip Date: November 30, 2003 @ 9:12 PM if the cbdtpa is passed everyone will suffer...concidering all electronic devises are now breaking the law because they dont have a stupid fritz chip in them.
dogpile	Subject: Re: Microsft's Palladium chip Date: November 30, 2003 @ 9:12 PM Yes, palladium will eventually be cracked. Moles are everywhere in corporate america. Nothing is ever secure. I will be waiting for the day that palladium is cracked.
SaMaL	Subject: Re: Microsft's Palladium chip Date: November 30, 2003 @ 9:12 PM Isnt it illegal to monitor your activity on your own computer? I mean constitutionally illegal? Also, that fritz chip is illegal int other countries. For instance in Russia this will be illegal because it forces you to use only the software which is approved by the 3rd side(eg not the developer or you, but by M$ and folks)without your agreement. Or does it means that now there will be a license agreement "End user license agreement for PC usage" that youll have to sign before you buy a PC. And one last thing: if ill write my own progz, does that means that ill have to send them to M$ for approval? Well that sound totally f*cked up.
goldenpi	Subject: Re: Microsft's Palladium chip Date: November 30, 2003 @ 9:12 PM You will not need microsofts approval to write your own programs, but you will need microsofts approval to write programs which use palladium features, such as opening palladium-encrypted documents. Ordinary non-palladium programs will not be able to read palladium documents, but they will execute. Note that palladium encrypted documents will become quite common, as microsoft will probably edventually use it to protect all office documents, bits of windows, most WMA and WMV files, potentially even email.
SaMaL	Subject: Re: Microsft's Palladium chip Date: November 30, 2003 @ 9:12 PM It doesn makes me feel better. But i think that this palladium isnt wreally a threat. No one will buy it. As written in article, the fritz chip will be put inside the motherboards and will check bios, the os..etc. But why should manufacturers put this chip inside their boards? I mean Intel will probadly put it inside their boards(coz they are designed this chip),and theyll make their chipsets shut down if the chip isnt present, SiS will(coz they are licensing from intel) but there is also VIA. VIA makes P4x series for a long time without any license from Intel, and making a lot of money from it, there is no reason why they should put fritz inside their chipsets, and they will make more money if they wont. Of course Intel may add a protection to their CPUs so they wont work on the non-fritz systems, but there is also AMD,Cursoe and VIA who make CPUs.
goldenpi	Subject: Re: Microsft's Palladium chip Date: November 30, 2003 @ 9:12 PM Noone brought windows 98, me or XP either, and everyone uses on of those. MS wont have to sell the palladium software, just make sure the OEMs preinstall it. Palladium will only function properly with the chip, so those OEMs will need palladium (more accuratly, a souped-up form of TCPA) compliant motherboards. Since palladium-OS will become dominant very quickly, noone will want to buy non-palladium motherboards.
SaMaL	Subject: Re: Microsft's Palladium chip Date: November 30, 2003 @ 9:12 PM There is still Linux, and i think that even if m$ will make all their soft work only wit palladium(tcpa, whatever theyll call it)compliant hardware, there is always will be an alternative. And their protection may be cracked. When microsoft introduced software activation, they said it will be difficult to hack, but it was hacked and hacked fast.Maybe TCPA will take a long time to hack.but software protection, the Palladium, will be hacked, not very fast but it will be be.
goldenpi	Subject: Re: Microsft's Palladium chip Date: November 30, 2003 @ 9:12 PM I have studied TCPA is detail. I would study palladium in detail too if Microsoft had released any. While they are happy to claim palladium will make systems secure, stop all viruses, save the internet from pirates and cure cancer they havn't said much about what it does or how it works. TCPA looks quite secure, if only because there is no way to get round it without a chip manufacturing plant, but it only works until its time to load the OS. TCPA ensures the system has not been tampered with, noone has reflashed the DVD drive to remove region codeing or modified the sound card to give unprotected digital output. Then it loads the OS, tells it everythings checked and doesn't do anything else. TCPA is very secure, but there no need to break it. Palladium is the real target, and something as big and complex as that must be full of holes. This is quite important, as MS probably has evil plans for palladium. Perhaps it wont be able to connect to samba servers, because they arn't trusted systems. MS will release details of the palladium API so people can write palladium software, but under an "identified software" license (google it)
goat1974	Subject: Re: Microsft's Palladium chip Date: November 30, 2003 @ 9:12 PM Next thing after TCPA and Palladium we'll all be getting tattoos of 666 on our foreheads.
goldenpi	Subject: Re: Microsft's Palladium chip Date: November 30, 2003 @ 9:12 PM After TCPA and palladium MS will probably lobby to ban open source as a threat to national security
SaMaL	Subject: Re: Microsft's Palladium chip Date: November 30, 2003 @ 9:12 PM Yeah, and the law of the death penalty for pirating and sharing
goldenpi	Subject: Re: Microsft's Palladium chip Date: November 30, 2003 @ 9:12 PM Possibly helped by some of Bills "charity" donations. The ones which seem to be charitable and are good publicity, but are usually politically motivated attempts to gain some more support in government.
sharestation	Subject: Re: Microsft's Palladium chip Date: November 30, 2003 @ 9:12 PM Think of the ATHLON. It's a real alternative to the Pentium. It is much cheaper and in some cases faster than the shit products of Intel. I think Intel and Microsoft are too powerful on the Market. There is no real competition. That's why they don't care of producing bad products or products which spy out and restrict the users. So I try to buy products from alternative firms. This is our most powerful weapon against RiAA and things like fritz. I also think that there is no efect if you protest against the laws because the music-industry and every firm against filesharing have money you don't have and this will be decisive. thx for RE's.
JJMCJ	Subject: Re: Microsft's Palladium chip Date: November 30, 2003 @ 9:12 PM I'm new to this site. I just discovered it today. I as well share a hate for the RIAA. Theyre thieves and hypocrites. I want to do everything i can to support this site. That's all for now.
XBuster	Subject: Re: Microsft's Palladium chip Date: November 30, 2003 @ 9:12 PM I'm new to this site. Found that site through Yahoo! and decided to say that the RIAA suck goats and can go to hell, 'cause I'm not spending a goddam buck on any of their CDs.
goldenpi	Subject: Re: Microsft's Palladium chip Date: November 30, 2003 @ 9:12 PM Lots of new people today. I may actually lose my place as the most active person in the forums . Intel may have competitors, but its the OEM and business markets that count. Intel Xeon processors have almost the entire high-end server market and the pentiums rule the home OEMs. Alone that would be enough to probably force an unwanted technology, but if MS decides to put something in the Windows Pa OEM license that requires TCPA-compliant hardware... I would like to remind people I have studied the TCPA system, it is basicly a tamperproofing and tamper-detection system.
coldwind777	Subject: Re: Microsft's Palladium chip Date: November 30, 2003 @ 9:12 PM We need to take issues like this, and RIAA's MAP, and other monopoolistic and such business practices to Congress. If enough people voice their opinion, they'll have to listen. Or else they'll have an angry electorate to face at the next election. Or a revolution. Possibly both.
spacedevil69	Subject: Re: Microsft's Palladium chip Date: November 30, 2003 @ 9:12 PM Hello everyone new to the board. Heres my two cents on the topic. A big brother chip in a computer. Well not in my computer...Ill just use old oudated software. But most likely I'll just switch to linux. As far as Intel goes Im a die hard athlon user. I think the big corporations are feeling the big economic blow. Linux is gaining large ground on windows and m$ is feeling the weight of it. More and more companies are switching to linux systems for networking. A good example is dreamworks made shrek entirely on a linux platform and more animated studios have made the switch. So I wont be surprised if windows will one day become obsolete. However it will be a long road to get there. If more companies had more vested interest in their customers and started producing software for alternative operating systems it will make the big boys reavaluate their products. But I have been seeing more and more support for linux so things are on the right track. Just slow...
goldenpi	Subject: Re: Microsft's Palladium chip Date: November 30, 2003 @ 9:12 PM Precisely. Microsoft sees linux gaining popularity, and knows it must do something. Linux used to be the OS of geeks. Now its a respected business OS. People are no longer laughed out of meetings for suggesting it . Microsoft knows the only way to ensure they keep their monopoly is to lock people in, and thats the function of palladium. Cant keep using old hardware forever, and I suspect all processor companies will have to impliment the hardware component edventually because Microsoft will pressure the OEMs (either unofficially or through OEM licenses) to use only compliant hardware). I can however use VMware to run some programs . What we really need is a sort of geeky open-source super-VMware, a program that emulates a PC near perfectly but had all the debugging features VM lacks, such as the ability to pause the computer, change a few bytes of simulated RAM and resume, or log all the data going over the bus. That would be a major project through, and I dont think theres enough demand for that. The only practical use of PC emulation apart from really low level debugging is server consolidation (another practice MS disapproves of, because the virtual servers usually reuse old windows NT licenses) and VMware already fills that niche.
tuxtronxp	Subject: Re: Microsft's Palladium chip Date: November 30, 2003 @ 9:12 PM Macrosucks... i prefer Microshaft but thats a good one too. Learn Linux, use Proxies, Be safe. Use protection when screwing with the RIAA, they are quit dirty
CommanderChaos	Subject: Re: Microsft's Palladium chip Date: November 30, 2003 @ 9:12 PM Pssh....just don't upgrade when MicroShit's next thing with Palladium comes out. I'm perfectly happy with my Windows XP right now anyway.
da-gimp	Subject: Re: Microsft's Palladium chip Date: November 30, 2003 @ 9:12 PM I can agree with that. It's time to stock up on AMD procs and mobos, let the IntelSoft stuff rot. I'm using an old P2-333 as I write this, and it's still going strong. If I want fast, I'll just switch over to my Athlon 1900XP and keep plugging. As for Linux? Well, IBM thinks it's good enough to use on the corporate servers they sell. They use that as a major selling point, and it works. I like Linux, but I need to take the time to really learn how to set it up and use it. It wouldn't take much to dump Micro$oft and keep right on going.
Malchus	Subject: Re: Microsft's Palladium chip Date: November 30, 2003 @ 9:12 PM Here's a big victory against the anti-christ (MS), and it's at the hands of their own stupidity, too. MS decided that in order to profit off of old liscenses, they'd rent Windows to businesses instead of selling it. That way, they'd profit off of businesses that never upgraded to the latest version of NT or whatever. As soon as they announced this idea, businesses across the company immediately ordered their IT departments to make a switch to Windows. Here would be a way to get MS where they live, and nip this whole this in the bud. Right now, Windows XP automatically downloads updates for itself whenever it is connected to the internet. You cannot refuse these downloads, nor are there instructions on disabling this feature or telling where the files are so that you may delete them. This is hacking. The company has used a back door to gain access to your computer and leave unsolicited software, thus breaking the law. As a comparison. If Ed McMahon breaks into my house to give me the million dollar check and hides it in my couch, then makes me coffee, meets me in my living room when I wake up and informs me that he's brought me 1 million dollars and that all I have to do is start spending it, I'd still be pretty pissed off that he broke into my house.
drumdrumdrum	Subject: Re: Microsft's Palladium chip Date: November 30, 2003 @ 9:12 PM it can be disabled, but there are bigger problems than the auto update. I installed a firewall on an XP system, and there are several programs running that keep trying to send and recieve data from microsoft's website there is something called run dll, lsass.exe and csrss.exe. the two .exe's are also in win2k, but i don't think they acess the net., even in winxp they do not acess to often.
JizzEatinRav...	Subject: Re: Microsft's Palladium chip Date: November 30, 2003 @ 9:12 PM I called microsoft and spoke to one of technicians and they told the Fritz chip will probally be released on all new systems by early to mid 2004 and you will only be able to use your old computer to get online for about maybe 2 years until you get a new one with a Fritz chip. This really sux and no one doesn't seem to have done much to have fight it. From what they told me it sounds like they are sure that this will pass or maybe it has i and i am unaware?
AverageConsumer	Subject: Re: Microsft's Palladium chip Date: November 30, 2003 @ 9:12 PM Hmm, I guess I won't need an internet connection in a couple of years, then, if my old machines won't work online. I won't need new hardware, like cd burners, RAM, and hard drives, since I won't be downloading anythng. Boy, I'm gonna be able to save myself a lot of money in a couple of years. Sounds good.
JizzEatinRav...	Subject: Re: Microsft's Palladium chip Date: November 30, 2003 @ 9:12 PM True but those with buisnesses will feel ir more.
JizzEatinRav...	Subject: Re: Microsft's Palladium chip Date: November 30, 2003 @ 9:12 PM We can all thank Microsoft, Mpaa, Riaa, Dmca, Tcpa, etc etc for shoveing chips and laws down our throats.
da-gimp	Subject: Re: Microsft's Palladium chip Date: November 30, 2003 @ 9:12 PM Looks like I might have to stop using computers at that point. I'd go through a little withdrawal, but I'd manage. That is, until they make it impossible to do anything without logging into the net. I guess it's not too far from there to have a smart chip implanted in your hand, or the 'bar code' tattooed on your right wrist. Remember, just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they aren't REALLY out to get you.
KILLtheRIAA	Subject: Re: Microsft's Palladium chip Date: November 30, 2003 @ 9:12 PM Wow. I think America is getting lamer. If this is true then there is gonna be alot chaos for the months to come.
AverageConsumer	Subject: Re: Microsft's Palladium chip Date: November 30, 2003 @ 9:12 PM So, what will Palladium actually do? I mean, I know what it is intended to do, but what happens when it actually intercepts illegal activity? The average user may be clueless, but they'll catch on real quick when their brand spankin new Optimatic 5500.3 starts to delete files, and gives them an online scolding for doing unauthorized things with Big Brother Billy's Operating System. It will be too late, of course, but how many new machines might they sell once word of that kind of stuff starts making the rounds? They won't have a choice, and they won't be able to do anything about it, but they will be pissed. One plus: MicroSoft hasn't been able to release anything yet that hasn't been so full of sloppy code and security flaws you could drive a truck through it.
KILLtheRIAA	Subject: Re: Microsft's Palladium chip Date: November 30, 2003 @ 9:12 PM It's already too late it seems. I ask myself once again how much of this land of the free is free?
AverageConsumer	Subject: Re: Microsft's Palladium chip Date: November 30, 2003 @ 9:12 PM I know. We can form a terrorist organization, and really lean on powerless citizens. We could call ourselves the RIAA. No, wait, that one's taken.
KILLtheRIAA	Subject: Re: Microsft's Palladium chip Date: November 30, 2003 @ 9:12 PM lol. Maybe we should all learn to love the chip instead and smile gracefully at our future of technology. We should all send the Riaa, Microsoft and the Tcpa some nice inspirational letters how they have changed out lives and also tell them how excited you are about the chip that you came a huge load in your pants Gotta love em
KILLtheRIAA	Subject: Re: Microsft's Palladium chip Date: November 30, 2003 @ 9:12 PM Seems like everyone is excited here

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